Any N-400 denied for leaving sponsoring employer too soon

[aabbcc11]

I do not know about AC21 but for regular GC cases I still stick to my point. What would happen if the company shuts down a week after a person gets his/her GC ? Does that show intent to defraud the agency on part of the employer ? A person I know was laid off a few weeks after his gc approval and this was part of a massive layoffs. He got his usc this year.

" If you attached a letter to your I-485 saying that you will leave the employer one day after approval" -- why the hell would anyone attach such a letter at all? How can one know of their job intentions at a future point?

 

[nj_skm]

Thanks for your input, guys.
I have the answer that I needed.
I'll forget about getting worried over imaginary demons and try to make the best deal out of the situation.
I did worry enough thru the GC process and in the end it worked out fine.
Maybe the same will happen during USC.

 

[Muku]

If you learn of cases where people in a similar situation were denied or had their GC revoked, you can avoid applying for naturalization. If you apply anyway, you can reduce the risk by waiting until the 6-year mark or later to apply, so it won't be so obvious that you changed jobs right after GC approval (the form only asks for 5 years of employment history).

No one answered this earlier: Has any one heard of GC being revoked due to applicant using AC21?

 

[aabbcc11]

I think there was one person with AC21 here who did get his usc. Since the ac21 guys are starting to become eligible around now we may start to see more reports on their n400 cases.

We have to remember that this forum has just a small sample of the applicants telling their experiences and AC21 is a relatively new part of the equation. Plus most people only post on a forum when their case gets stuck. So if ac21 becomes problematic then more examples will start showing up.

 

[Jackolantern]

No one answered this earlier: Has any one heard of GC being revoked due to applicant using AC21?

On this forum, no. And being denied merely for using AC21 won't happen, given the explicit authorization to do so by Congress. Those at risk are those who used AC21 and then left the new employer very quickly after GC approval. Or didn't use AC21 but left the original employer very quickly after GC approval. But in either case, it's unlikely to be a problem unless they get some anal or overzealous management at USCIS or DHS who wants to make a point of being "tough on immigration", ordering the IOs to fish for nitpicky reasons to deny citizenship or revoke green cards. They have behaved like that in the past, such as some 10 years ago when they went on a drive to denaturalize thousands of citizens (see http://www.englishfirst.org/ballots/citusa6000.htm).

 

[Jackolantern]

I do not know about AC21 but for regular GC cases I still stick to my point. What would happen if the company shuts down a week after a person gets his/her GC ? Does that show intent to defraud the agency on part of the employer ?

How soon they shut down after your GC approval has nothing to do with it. It is absurd to think that a company would decide to time its shutdown to occur right after your GC approval. But the other way around is different; there are employees who do plan to leave the company shortly after GC approval.

What matters is how soon they shutdown after the I-140 filing, because the I-140 is where they make declarations of ability to pay. Even so, in cases of employer fraud they usually don't go after the affected employees to revoke anything, unless there is evidence that the employee was an accomplice to the fraud.

 

[nj_skm]

Ok. What about if I get laid off? I've invoked AC21 in good faith and followed the law.
Then I get laid off due to tough economic conditions and look for a new job.
I don't think this can be construed as being fickle.
But then there are so many twists, it's tough to enumerate them all...

 

[Jackolantern]

Ok. What about if I get laid off? I've invoked AC21 in good faith and followed the law.
Then I get laid off due to tough economic conditions and look for a new job.
I don't think this can be construed as being fickle.

Your defense sounds more than reasonable, but it's not us you have to convince.

But stop worrying about it. Is there a guarantee you're safe? No. But you also aren't guaranteed safe if you drive down the road. Life is not free of risk. Do what you have to do to live the life you want to live, as long as you don't hurt people.

 

[Normann]

What matters is how soon they shutdown after the I-140 filing, because the I-140 is where they make declarations of ability to pay. Even so, in cases of employer fraud they usually don't go after the affected employees to revoke anything, unless there is evidence that the employee was an accomplice to the fraud.

Guys how does this discussion change if you have left the employer due to Chapter 7 bankruptcy BEFORE GC approval? I used my EAD but since the job was different I could not and did not use AC21.

Are they going to give me a hard time just because it took them 5 years to process the GC?

Unfortunately I got into a position where the company shut down due to a failed merger, right after I got my EAD. I could not find a job that was similar (2003 job market) so I took employment with my EAD. Both of our (my employer, and myself) intentions was to stay for many years in that position at the time we have filed. It was unforeseen circumstances that lead to this. I know. Like they care.

I am about to send in our N-400 and getting a very cold feat about all this.

Anyone read about denials that are similar to mine. I am afraid to send this N-400 in.

Thanks for any help!

 

[Jackolantern]

Guys how does this discussion change if you have left the employer due to Chapter 7 bankruptcy BEFORE GC approval? I used my EAD but since the job was different I could not and did not use AC21.

How different was the job you changed to? It doesn't have to be exactly the same to qualify for AC21. 2003 was a bad job market, but after holding that non-similar job for a while, did you to change to a similar job in the years after that? What matters is that you had a same or similar job or job offer at the time your I-485 was decided.

If it was too different to qualify for AC21, that means you have not legitimately obtained your green card, and it could be revoked if USCIS finds out. The scrutiny involved during naturalization is something that could lead them to find out.

 

[Normann]

How different was the job you changed to? It doesn't have to be exactly the same to qualify for AC21. 2003 was a bad job market, but after holding that non-similar job for a while, did you to change to a similar job in the years after that? What matters is that you had a same or similar job or job offer at the time your I-485 was decided.

If it was too different to qualify for AC21, that means you have not legitimately obtained your green card, and it could be revoked if USCIS finds out. The scrutiny involved during naturalization is something that could lead them to find out.

It was not even close. Marketing Manager to eventually Airline Pilot. I have not returned to that line of work ever since and I am not planning to.

So now I will have to keep re-validating my GC forever? What is upsetting me is that none of this was in my control. We had the intent. It is not my fault that it took USCIS so long to process my case, and it is not my fault that the company went Ch7. If processing would be reasonable like 6 months, this would not be an issue now. This is not fair.

 

[Jackolantern]

It was not even close. Marketing Manager to eventually Airline Pilot. I have not returned to that line of work ever since and I am not planning to.

So now I will have to keep re-validating my GC forever?

Yes, unless you want to put your green card at risk by applying for citizenship. Be happy that you weren't deported, because that is what would have happened if USCIS found out about your lack of a same or similar job or job offer when your AOS was pending.

What is upsetting me is that none of this was in my control. We had the intent. It is not my fault that it took USCIS so long to process my case, and it is not my fault that the company went Ch7. If processing would be reasonable like 6 months, this would not be an issue now. This is not fair.

99% of immigration is unfair. That isn't going to change anytime soon.

 

[Normann]

Yeah well... I am not expecting anything to be fair... anyways.

Can you elaborate on this please:

What matters is how soon they shutdown after the I-140 filing, because the I-140 is where they make declarations of ability to pay. Even so, in cases of employer fraud they usually don't go after the affected employees to revoke anything, unless there is evidence that the employee was an accomplice to the fraud.

Is there a law or precedent case that says my original I-140 should have been denied. I was still working with the company and kept working there for a good while after I140 was approved. (1-2 years I think, I don't have my suit case full of nothing else but immigration stuff with me at the moment). So my I485 was based on a valid I-140. I think. When the I-485 was filed my intention and the company's intention was unchanged proven by the fact that I was still there after I140. I think I have worked a total of 3 years there or more.

How is this fraudulent? I understand the guideline that you should work at least some time after GC but what if this is beyond your control? Does that not matter at all?

It seems to me all this is coming down to intention, especially on my part.

Thanks!

 

[Jackolantern]

Intention is just one part of it, but intentions alone are not enough.

How is this fraudulent?

I wouldn't necessarily call your situation fraudulent. You simply became ineligible for a green card as a result of losing your job and failing to find another "same or similar" one.

People who lost their job and didn't find another "same or similar" job have had their I-485 denied for that when USCIS found (via RFE), and their jobs and intentions were perfectly genuine when the papers were filed. If USCIS knew about your employer going out of business and your other job not satisfying AC21, your case would have been denied. And if the situation is such that your AOS would have been denied if USCIS knew about it at the time of adjudication, that is grounds for revoking your green card.

And you are partially at fault. In the years after 2003 when your AOS was still pending you could have used your EAD to eventually obtain other "same or similar" employment, but you didn't.

If you want to roll the dice, you can go ahead and apply for citizenship and see what happens. For many people they don't ask about the employment history at all. However, because of your major career change, they are probably more likely to ask you such questions than with other applicants.

 

[Normann]

Intention is just one part of it, but intentions alone are not enough.

I wouldn't necessarily call your situation fraudulent. You simply became ineligible for a green card as a result of losing your job and failing to find another "same or similar" one.

People who lost their job and didn't find another "same or similar" job have had their I-485 denied for that when USCIS found (via RFE), and their jobs and intentions were perfectly genuine when the papers were filed. If USCIS knew about your employer going out of business and your other job not satisfying AC21, your case would have been denied. And if the situation is such that your AOS would have been denied if USCIS knew about it at the time of adjudication, that is grounds for revoking your green card.

And you are partially at fault. In the years after 2003 when your AOS was still pending you could have used your EAD to eventually obtain other "same or similar" employment, but you didn't.

If you want to roll the dice, you can go ahead and apply for citizenship and see what happens. For many people they don't ask about the employment history at all. However, because of your major career change, they are probably more likely to ask you such questions than with other applicants.

I see the point and I am not arguing against it. And thanks for answering and trying to help. But what is the length these guys are requiring us to keep at that job? Basically it seems as long they take their sweet time to process the application. How can that be the legal measure? Had it taken 20 years to process, would I have had to maintain the same job for 20 years? So it was only 3-4 years. Is that the law? When processing, one day, will go down to 6 months (never of course) will that be the new standard? How is that consistent in legal terms? I guess I could throw a few 100k on it and fight it all the way it goes and see.

I mean... I will see a lawyer within a week or two. But I have seen some posts who changed jobs before GC and got approved. I have seen some who changed after GC and got issues but got approved. I have seen some who had no jobs before GC and got approved. Extremely inconsistent.

Once again. Sorry for my frustration, and I am not trying to come across with a bad attitude but this is pretty upsetting. What it comes down to is that our faith is based on who wins the "USCIS processing Vs. Keep your job" finals. Simply amazing.

 

[Jackolantern]

Had it taken 20 years to process, would I have had to maintain the same job for 20 years?

Not the same job, but the same general line of work ("same or similar" AC21 criteria). Staying like that for 10 or 20 years sounds absurd? Of course! But that is how USCIS operates.

Some other examples ...

• Permanent residents can file for a green card for their unmarried adult children. That category has a wait of several years, and it forces the individuals to stay unmarried all those years, because getting married before GC approval instantly voids the application unless the parent who filed it became a citizen before the marriage. There was a case in the news about a Filipino couple in this category who got married while waiting on their GCs, USCIS didn't know about it, then USCIS found out about it years later when they applied for naturalization, and deported them.
  
• If an employment-based green card applicant is married, and gets divorced while their AOS is pending, the AOS of the derivative spouse will be denied even if they were waiting for 5 or 10 or 15 years (unless USCIS doesn't find out about the divorce, of course).
  
• Before the age-out protection legislation was passed, children who turned 21 while waiting for their green card would lose eligibility and have to leave the country (unless they were eligible for some other kind of visa or green card), even though it was USCIS fault that they got too old while waiting.
  
• Before AC21, you would be stuck with the exact same employer in the exact same job until your green card was approved, regardless of how long it took! There was no "same or similar" portability.

I know it's hard for you to accept because it's so unfair, but that is the reality of USCIS. Apply for citizenship at your own peril!

I mean... I will see a lawyer within a week or two. But I have seen some posts who changed jobs before GC and got approved. I have seen some who changed after GC and got issues but got approved. I have seen some who had no jobs before GC and got approved. Extremely inconsistent.

Of those "no jobs" people, for how many of them did USCIS know about their "no job" situation?

 

[Normann]

Not the same job, but the same general line of work ("same or similar" AC21 criteria). Staying like that for 10 or 20 years sounds absurd? Of course! But that is how USCIS operates.

Some other examples ...

• Permanent residents can file for a green card for their unmarried adult children. That category has a wait of several years, and it forces the individuals to stay unmarried all those years, because getting married instantly voids the application unless the parent who filed it became a citizen before the marriage.
  
• If an employment-based green card applicant is married, and gets divorced while their AOS is pending, the AOS of the derivative spouse will be denied even if they were waiting for 5 or 10 or 15 years (unless USCIS doesn't find out about the divorce, of course).
  
• Before the age-out protection legislation was passed, children who turned 21 while waiting for their green card would lose eligibility and have to leave the country (unless they were eligible for some other kind of visa or green card), even though it was USCIS fault that they got too old while waiting.
  
• Before AC21, you would be stuck with the exact same employer in the exact same job until your green card was approved, regardless of how long it took! There was no "same or similar" portability.

I know it's hard for you to accept because it's so unfair, but that is the reality of USCIS. Apply for citizenship at your own peril!

Of those "no jobs" people, for how many of them did USCIS know about their "no job" situation?

Those are some amazing examples. It certainly proves your point. What a great legal system of the "most liberal country of the world"... I know... off topic. I just can't help it and I am venting...

So realistically my option are to roll the dice with an N400, or extend. I can get a lazy officer and be nice and smile and have a chance, or get deported the day after interview. Can I just keep extending my GC without issues forever and come back once a year. Even that would be an option for us since we travel practically for free.

We have made the decision to eventually leave and one day end up back in Europe anyhow but since we have spent so much time here we wanted to leave with a passport and have the option to come back just in case. Beyond frustrating.

 

[Jackolantern]

Can I just keep extending my GC without issues forever and come back once a year.

You can keep renewing the card every 10 years for the rest of your life without issues (it is very unlikely USCIS will dig into your employment history from years ago if you don't apply for citizenship), except that just coming back to the US once or twice a year for a short stay is not sustainable for several years. After a few years, eventually an officer at the POE is going to notice the travel pattern, at which time you'll get a warning not to do it again, or a court date with an immigration judge.

To preserve your green card during those long trips, you can get a reentry permit to stay abroad for 2 years, and renew it again for another 1 or 2 years. After that, it will either be rejected, or you'll only get 1 year.

 

[SuC]

You can keep renewing the card every 10 years for the rest of your life without issues (it is very unlikely USCIS will dig into your employment history from years ago if you don't apply for citizenship), except that just coming back to the US once or twice a year for a short stay is not sustainable for several years. After a few years, eventually an officer at the POE is going to notice the travel pattern, at which time you'll get a warning not to do it again, or a court date with an immigration judge.

To preserve your green card during those long trips, you can get a reentry permit to stay abroad for 2 years, and renew it again for another 1 or 2 years. After that, it will either be rejected, or you'll only get 1 year.

Hi, everyone, please don't mind I highjack this thread and put my situation here.

I'm with the my original sponsor for over 6 years, and I'm still with them now. 9 month ago, my EB-based GC was approved.

Around 4 years ago, I started to go to school part-time. Now I finally graduate and get my license in the new field, which is completely unrelated to my current job.

I plan to do a complete career switch now, and leave my current profession for good. Will USCIS think I planned career switch 4 years ago and thus GC is obtained by fraudulent intention?

Once I thought about doing my current profession part-time. But after working for so many years at the same position, I get tired of it and do not want to do it any more. I enjoy my new profession and pay is better too.

So what should I do? Do you guys think the risk is high? I try to stick to my job as long as possible to prove my true intent. But now I graduated from school and it is hard to stick to old position any longer.

 

[Normann]

You can keep renewing the card every 10 years for the rest of your life without issues (it is very unlikely USCIS will dig into your employment history from years ago if you don't apply for citizenship), except that just coming back to the US once or twice a year for a short stay is not sustainable for several years. After a few years, eventually an officer at the POE is going to notice the travel pattern, at which time you'll get a warning not to do it again, or a court date with an immigration judge.

To preserve your green card during those long trips, you can get a reentry permit to stay abroad for 2 years, and renew it again for another 1 or 2 years. After that, it will either be rejected, or you'll only get 1 year.

Thanks for all the info and help.