About to be deported and without a lawyer

bolbolu

New Member
A friend of mine, whom I am very fond of, is an illegal alien and has been caught last December. In a few days he has his court date in Seattle, WA, and just a few days ago his lawyer said that it would be a waste of her time (and of my friend's money) if she represented him.
I would hate to see him go because he is an extemely bright and stimulating individual who came here years ago to gain a college degree. To deny him entrance in the United States for 10 years would mean that he won't be able to achieve his goals in life.

-Does anyone reccomend a good lawyer in the Seattle area that he could contact?
-What options does he have? Any suggestions please! If he was to leave it would have a great impact on many people, and I'd be truly heartbroken.
 
JoeF said:
Well, quite frankly, he can't be all that bright if he chose a life as an illegal alien.
Well, everybody is responsible for his or her own actions. To achieve his goals in life, he should have avoided becoming illegal in the first place. This kind of excuse is again something that doesn't quite show brilliance.
Pretty much none at this point. The lawyer is right. It would be throwing good money after bad.
Well, first off, he should stop looking for excuses. Mature people accept responsibility for their actions.
He will have to accept the fact that he will be banned from entering the US for 10 years. Pushing emotional buttons doesn't change this. Quite frankly, he should have known that being illegal is not a sustainable life and that it eventually would lead to heartbreaking. So, he and only he is the one responsible for your emotional distress.
Sorry if I sounded harsh, but he needs to face reality.

Sorry about your friend. How did he get caught, was he involved in something illegal beside been illegal? I like to know because I am illegal myself. Thanks
 
He went for a roadtrip with a friend. His friend was driving, as he was sleeping, and crossed the Canadian border. He obviously didn't have papers to come back to the US.
 
You are confusing me, how did he get back into the US without papers ?

This would actually have been an opportunity to go back to his home country, get a visa for the US and return legally (requires some creative lying to fill a 10 year void in your bio).
 
I' am sorry to hear that but this is to funny!!!!!!! roadtrip an he went to CANADA and he didnt know because we was sleeping...WHAT AN IDIOT!..ahhahahahahahha I feel sorry for him.....
bolbolu said:
He went for a roadtrip with a friend. His friend was driving, as he was sleeping, and crossed the Canadian border. He obviously didn't have papers to come back to the US.
 
> You are confusing me, how did he get back into the US without papers ?
> Checks at the Canadian border were often sloppy. But, if he or
> his buddy stated that he was a US citizen, he would be in even more trouble.

Well if they got through the checkpoint without being asked for papers, how did he end up with a court appointment then ?

> Uhh, "creative lying" is still lying. That's even worse than being
> illegal. It can result in a lifelong ban.

10 years is pretty much lifelong, so that doesn't make for a big deterrent. If the lying thing works and one can come back legal papers, nobody will ever now. 30% of 'legal' immigration papers are obtained in one way or another fraudulently, a liar would be in good company.
 
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> Sure some people will know. Makes nice blackmail...

Yeah, I guess a risk one would have to live with.

> 30% of 'legal' immigration papers are obtained in one way or
> another fraudulently, a liar would be in good company.
> That's BS. Where did you get that number from? Lying to get
> an immigration benefit is grounds for deportation and a lifelong
> ban, and that's happening every day.

Actually, that number was freely made up just to get you going. It is allways entertaining to see you go off.

I don't know what the exact number is, but I have met an awful many 'specialty cook chinese' who were working to get their PhD. Or a surgeon who is an 'electronics repair man' in the eyes of the USCIS. Or people who inadvertently introduced me to two different people as their 'mom' (several years apart, mom#1 had reverted to 'auntie' at that point).

The problem is that the system is completely unworkable for legitimate employment based immigrants. As a result people have to work the system at many levels. Most commonly by fudging the recruitment process for labor certifications.

> And there is quite a different between 10 years and lifelong...

Nah, both times it means that you have to buy a new identity in whatever country you are from in order to return (or you have to pay some 1st nation guide to ferry you accross the St Lawrence).
 
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> That may have worked before 9/11, but not in this time and age anymore.

Worked before, and works after. 95% of straightforward EB cases get approved without an interview. They look at the paperwork, not the actual individual. Not that I would do that or advocate anybody to try it, but it does work. They haven't changed their procedures in any meaningful way when it comes to immigration visas since 9/11. The only change is that they actually wait for results of the fingerprints and that they run the name against their terrorist list (if you name doesn't have an 'Al' in it, you are home free).

> In any case, a person resorting to such stuff is way beyond normal
> human behavior.

No, they are exactly within the range of normal human behaviour. They do what it takes to get the job done. If your alternative is to cut tulips for a living on some field in colombia, the boundaries of right and wrong become flexible.
I read a good story the other day on the 'renting out' of green cards. There are plenty of people abroad who have a GC but choose not to live in the US. They will give the information from their GC to some poor sucker dunking the donuts in california. He gets some well done forgeries with the number and name on it and is fine from this day on. In exchange the owner of the card abroad takes the EIC and accrues social security and medicare eligibility for their old age. Also, it relieves them from the hassle of shuttling back and forth every 6 months to maintain the GC.

(The sad fact is that the US wants illegal immigration. In any other developed country there is a standard employment permit system and above all an independent way for the employer to verify the validity of the documents presented. All a US employer has to go on these days are the 'no match' letters from SSA, and they come either 3 months late or not at all. And even then, there is no way of verifying for the employer whether the set of papers presented is in any way or form related to the person standing in front of him. There is no will to change this, otherwise it would have happened a long time ago.)

Have you seen CBP's newest badge of honour ? Apparently the policy book didn't have a chapter on 'freak axe murderer with bloody clothes and chainsaw in backpack'. So they let a guy who had sawed his canadian neighbour into pieces through the checkpoint at Calais, ME.
 
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> I don't know what is "normal human behavior" in your part of the world.
> The US, like other Western societies, are based on law. And if a
> person wants to have any kind of future in the US, he or she better
> follows the law.

Lol I am probably from one of the most law abiding places on this planet (maybe the austrians beat us to it). You know, the kind of place were people wouldn't cross the road at a 'don't walk' signal even if it was 2 am on a deserted backcountry highway.

> From some third-class novel, obviously.

I guess you could call the NY times a third-class novel if you are politically conservative enough ;)

http://query.nytimes.com/search/query?query=green cards&date_select=full&srchst=nyt

I can't link to the original article as it is subscription only, but here is a free reprint of the same article in the San Diego Union Tribune:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20050607/news_1n7socsec.html

Because the NYT says so doesn't make it true, but I have no reason to believe that it doesn't work. In fake documents you get what you pay for. I am sure, for maybe 1k you can get something better than the goverment can make it (for enough money you can probably get a genuine GC. They are made by a private company, again employing potentially corrupt workers.)

> Sure, you can get fake GCs, e.g., here in LA, in Macarthur Park.
> But such forgeries are easily detectable. Now, the average
> store owner may not be able to do so,

The average store owner doesn't WANT to recognize a card as fake. His only obligation in IRCA is to check whether the documents produced SEEM to be genuine. If I remember correctly, all he has to retain is the I-9, there isn't even a requirement to keep photocopies of produced documents (If you hire farmworkers in the field, how are you going to carry a photocopier around.....)

> but the person just has to get in a police checkpoint.

Coming to the states for 20 years now, live here for many. Got into a checkpoint by CBP once, and that was 50mi south of Bennington, VT actually on the way back from the Vermont Service Center.

> And in more and more cities, police is allowed to inquire about
> the immigration status of a person. It is becoming tough to be an
> illegal in the US...

And in other cities, the police deliberately don't ask. They know that their potential witness pool will shrink even further if anybody who talks to the cops is in danger of getting picked up.

> That's of course BS. Some employers want cheap labor, of
> course... Big surprise. The thing is that the borders are not
> controllable unless there is something like a wall erected.
> And that looks a bit too much like Eastern Europe...

Well, the employment verification would be fixable, wouldn't it ? If there was a will, a couple of 100 mil spent here would go a long way to eliminate illegal employment, the key driving factor of illegal immigration. The goverment could hire a contractor (like the guys running application support centers) to re-issue new SSN cards over a 3 year phase-in period. Everybody would have to go there provide proof of citizenship or a genuine GC, get a digital picture taken. The contractors (supervised by SSN officials) would have access to the legacy INS database as well as the current USCIS computer to verify identities.
And from this day on would have a biometrically encoded SSN card. Unless you have that card, only a valid EAD (no cheapo laminating machine interim EAD's anymore) will be sufficient to proove employment verification. With the ubiquitous internet, employers will be able to enter the SSN and a control-number from the card and get a likeness of the authorized employee on their screen. IRCA was written in the mid 80s, long before universal internet access for company HR departments.

This of course would be the bulletproof solution. A little babystep would be a universal website were employers could punch in a SSN and a name and pull up the 'no match' or 'not allowed to work without INS authorization' right then and there. For case #2, it could also pull up the validity of the presented EAD or visa through a cross-matching with a USCIS database.

Would this be technologically and financially impossible ? No, but it would be politically impossible. I stand by my (and many other folks) assessment:

The political system in the US WANTS a pool of illegal workers in the country. They keep labor costs low, the unions in check and on top of all, the crooks currently in power get political contributions from people who make good money exploiting illegal labor.

> The fines for employers hiring illegals are going to be raised soon
> as well. This is all part of the current anti-immigrant climate.

Fines are going up, enforcement is going down. Who cares.

> And more or less encouraging people to try the illegal route,
> like what you do in this thread, is only going to make it worse.

I am not encouraging anybody. The people stuck in a illegal situation know far more about the ins and outs of fixing these things than I could ever know.

PS:
The 30% number wasn't entirely pulled out of my #$%. There was a report by the office of the inspector general in 1993. They randomly picked 600 labor certifications and followed up whether a. the job actually existed b. the sponsored person ever worked that job. The results were scathing. Their recommendation to I believe Donna Shalala at the time was (paraphrased): 'The alien labor certification program utterly fails in all of its core requirements such as the protection of domestic workers from foreign competition etc. It should be either completely revamped, or abolished.' And you see how much effort they made to fix the problems. Instead of having the dysfunctional SWA doing the recruiting, they have now switched it to the honors system (RIR/PERM).
 
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> Yeah sure. Add a couple zeros to that number. Did you actually closely
> at the sacurity features of the GC? What can be easily faked is DLs,
> but not GCs. The manufacturer is

I didn't say you cut buy the real thing for 1k, but surely you can get something that will pass the average HR person, and that's all that counts.

> Oh yeah, and farmworkers of course can spend the top-dollars to get
> good fake cards... and they have the money to "rent" an SSN...
> yeah, right...

If you had read the article, you would know that the person leasing the card doesn't actually pay the lessor. The owner of the card gets paid by collecting the guys tax refund, in this salary scale usually an EIC redistribution.

> You obviously don't live anywhere near the Mexican border. There are fixed
> checkpoints on the roads leading north out of San Diego county. There are
> also a lot of mobile checkpoints, e.g., in Arizona.

That is why plenty of illegals move north, where they can find under the table jobs and where the local cops don't care. As I said, once in 20odd years.

> That is changing. LA police just instituted a policy to allow asking.
> That's a major development, in particular with the large Latino population
> here. In Arizona, the governor signed a law to explicitly allow it as well.

I don't see the day coming that people get randomly snatched in the streets and if you can't show ID you get jailed until you can.
If you stay out of sight, nobody will come after you. If you clog up some street corner in Farmingdale, NY looking for work, eventually you will force the local officials hands to do something about it.

> As the political climate turns anti-immigrant (with the so-called "Minutemen",
> and even the CA governor chiming in) this is going to increase.

Wishful thinking. The governor knows that he bent the rules himself to come to this country. He managed to bury it during the psychotic run-up to the recall election, if he gets too tough on immigration this will come back to bite him.

> Ever heard of the "Real ID" act? That's going in that direction.

Real ID is about re-erecting the Berlin Wall, about stripping people in deportation proceedings of their rights and about drivers licenses. Couldn't find anything in the summary that deals with employment eligibility verification. If they had wanted to put a crimp into illegal employment, the RealID act would have been an opportunity to do so. But they didn't, anyone's guess why.

> Oh yeah... You don't seem to work with Internet technologies, either...
> A publicly available database linking names and SSNs. What a nice tool for
> identity thieves...

Oh, like its not already there. I am talking about getting the information whether the presented number matches with the name in the SSA database and to check whether that name/number combination is listed with a valid EAD or H/L/O/J visa. By the way, USCIS/SSA had a pilot project on that 3 years ago, haven't heard about it ever since.

> Politically impossible because it would be the perfect tool for criminals...

Politically impossible because it would get shot down from all sides
- the people getting their lawn mowed and leafs blown for $25/week when it would cost $80/week done legally
- the gun fanatics who would see the black helicopters descending on them
- rednecks who would think it is a french idea
- the northeastern and west-coast liberals who would see the second coming of Mussolini in this
- the agro lobby who would see their access to cheap labor disappear
- the poultry industry
and the list goes on and on

The current idiotic system of credit verification in the US is the perfect tool for criminals. A system giving you a yeah or nea for a name/SSN combination wouldn't be so terribly helpful for such nefarious activity.

> As if a 12-year old report would have any value today...

It does have value. Because the fundamental tenets of the system it examines haven't changed. DOL is charged with an impossible task. The methods are based on a system intended to disfavor the hiring of non-unionized irish workers in the factories of the northeast. (posting at the 'worksite', veto rights of the local union) The system was never intended to include the hiring of a transplant surgeon in the early part of the third millenium.

> It is broken because it is targeted towards family immigration. Studies by
> economists like Borjas show that employment-based immigration
> would actually be beneficial for the US economy.

I am glad we agree on one thing. The US doesn't benefit from importing uneducated peasants, just based on the fact that their dad was picking tobacco leaves in the states in the 60s. The US benefits tremendously from importing the smartest and most motivated crop of indian and chinese university graduates. Unfortunately, the system is systematically rigged to favour the peasant, not the PhD ot masters student.

> A point system like Canada has would be a better implementation, but given
> the anti-immigrant sentiment in the population, no such fundamental change
> in the US immigration system will happen.

Better but not perfect. The canadian points system is geared towards importing english and french speaking PhD's regardless of the question whether there is a job market for them. As a result, there continue to be shortages of qualified tradesmen on the construction sites, but no shortage of PhD's to man the security guard shack. Believe me, I have relatives who went up there. They all do fine now, but things aren't that easy up there. The australian system on the other hand gives points based on the local labor market situation for various job-codes. The problem with that is that the labor department is typically the last to know about developments in the labor market.

> This has nothing to do with the "political system." That has to do with the
> politicians at least wanting to keep some immigration, at a time when a large
> part of the population doesn't want any.

This has everything to do with the fact that bashing immigrants is easier than doing something about the problems. And with the fact that the current regime profits from the system as it is.
 
I should have added 'on a major scale'. I am not talking about 1 or 10 or 200 people getting picked up at Walmart. You would have to deport about 2 mil people for 5 years from all over the country if you wanted to make a dent. It ain't gonna happen.

Oh, that Hiibel case is not a terribly good example. A cop was responding to a domestic violence report and the suspect refused to cooperate. (no, he was not just standing by the side of a highway smoking a cigarette)
Hardly a good case to justify the view that within a couple of years there will be cattle roundups of illegals with house to house searches, dogs and freight trains south to the border.
 
Tell me how exactly the changes made to the LC process since 1993 are helpful to address the problems brought up in that report ?

Summary:
http://www.oig.dol.gov/public/reports/oa/pre_1998/06-96-002-03-321s.htm

Report as .pdf :
http://www.oig.dol.gov/public/reports/oa/pre_1998/06-96-002-03-321.pdf


Report Title: The Department of Labor's Foreign Labor Certification Programs: The System is Broken and Needs to be Fixed

Report Number: 06-96-002-03-321

Issue Date: May 22, 1996

The OIG audited the Department's role in the employment-based, permanent labor certification (PLC) and the temporary H-1B Labor Condition Application (LCA) immigration programs. Under these two programs, ETA has responsibility for certifying certain employers' PLC applications and LCAs before aliens can obtain visas to legally work in the U.S. Our audit objective was to determine whether ETA policies and procedures adequately protected U.S. workers' jobs in accordance with the Immigration Act, as amended.

In our opinion, while ETA is doing all it can within its authority, the PLC and LCA programs do not protect U.S. workers' jobs or wages and, therefore, neither program meets its legislative intent. DOL's role amounts to little more than a paper shuffle for the PLC program and a "rubber stamping" for LCA program applications. As a result, annual expenditures of approximately $50 million for DOL's foreign labor certification programs do little to "add value" to the process of protecting American jobs and wages.

The PLC Program Does Not Meet Its Legislative Intent of Excluding Foreign Workers When Qualified, Willing U.S. Workers Are Available

The PLC program is employment-based and is intended to exclude aliens who seek admission to the U.S., or status as an immigrant, for employment purposes when qualified, willing U.S. workers are available for jobs. However, we found that the program does not currently protect U.S. workers' jobs. Instead, the PLC program allows aliens to immigrate, based on their attachment to a specific job, and then shop their services, in competition with equally or more qualified U.S. workers without regard to prevailing wages.

For the 24,150 aliens for whom PLC applications were certified, we determined:

* 99 percent were in the U.S. when the application was filed.
* 74 percent were working for the U.S. employer at the time of application.

Of these, 16 percent were not legally eligible to work for U.S. employers:

o 8 percent had pleasure visas.
o 1 percent had business visas.
o 4 percent were in the U.S. illegally.
o 3 percent had other visas.

* 11 percent never worked for the petitioning employer after adjustment to permanent resident status although the only reason for obtaining the green card was that the employers claimed that they had a job vacancy and that no qualified, willing U.S. workers were available.

In addition, we determined that, of the aliens who actually worked for the petitioning employer after adjustment to permanent resident status, 17 percent had left that employer within 6 months after their status was adjusted and a third (includes the 17 percent) had left within 1 year.

As part of the labor certification process, the employer must conduct a test of the labor market to determine that there are no qualified, willing U.S. workers available for employment in a job for which an application has been made. Using two different audit approaches, we determined the PLC labor market test was perfunctory at best.
 
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