A Chinese businesswoman was severely beaten by Homeland Security officer

[Milko_Djurovski]

I am not attempting to spread my "wisdom" around here or pretentiously assert myself, so I take exception to your little jab, Cinta. I simply try to express my views in a articulate and clear manner and if you find that pretentious or pompuos (which you seem to imply), that is your problem, not mine.

I have no idea where Michael Moore comes in this discussion, so we better not go off on far tangents. I, as an immigrant, do not have the right to vote and I don't think my posts are intended to sound political, unless the topic is political.

Believe me when I say that I have a very good understanding of what traditional American values are. The fact is that this forum, as you said, is really not bound by its title and has topics of various interest to immigrants, mainly read and contributed by VSC I-485 applicant. I will take that criticism and agree that this post perhaps does belong here, those somewhat vague parameters taken into account.

However, my point still stands and that is... there has to be differentiation between actions of a single customs officers and the actions of a country. I was attempting to say that overgeneralization is usually not a good thing, but I guess that does not fly with the public here, as long as their interest is served. The ICE officer in question should be reprimanded by all means neccessary. But I would not lump this with the I-485 suit and our plight, because this community did sue John Ashcroft, but not because of stuff like this, or if it did, then we face an uphill battle. Let's not mix apples and oranges...

 

[Milko_Djurovski]

Well....taxi-cab driving in NY/LA, working in gas-station at night (anywhere in America), being a bank teller at LA are more dangerous jobs than being a border guard at Canadian border (which is almost open). How many times did you hear that a taxi-can driver in NY killed/assulted his passenger assuming the passenger as ciminal? If the whole whole country acts as Mr. Rhodes did, everything will be disarray.

This is not a valid argument. Taxi-cab drivers are not law enforcement. Their job is to drive taxi cabs. The job of an ICE officer is to identify criminals and terrorists (vague definition) and stop them from entering the country, then pursue legal means against them. Yeah, if taxi-cab drivers started shooting suspicious folks, it would be the rule of force, but that is not the issue here.

 

[pralay]

This is not a valid argument. Taxi-cab drivers are not law enforcement. Their job is to drive taxi cabs. The job of an ICE officer is to identify criminals and terrorists (vague definition) and stop them from entering the country, then pursue legal means against them. Yeah, if taxi-cab drivers started shooting suspicious folks, it would be the rule of force, but that is not the issue here.

Well, a job is a job whether is law enforcement or cab-driver. A law enforcement officer's job is to keep law in order by following rules and trained methodologies. Being a law enforcement officer does not provide privilege to overstep or to commit mistake without any consequence. The basic rule is that in a civilized atmosphere (not a war-zone) you don't react without understanding or assessing the situation properly.

In case of cab-driver shooting, he/she can claim as self-defence. So it's either about defending country in case of ICE/DHS officer or about defending himself/herself in case of cab-driving. What I am trying to say that in civilized world most of the people keep sense of the normalcy, hence don't over-react (and some even get killed for that reason). As I mentioned before, if everybody over-reacts the the world will be disarray.

BTW, 99% people who cross border are not terrorists or criminals (especially true for canada-US border). So benefit of doubt should come before suspicion.

 

[Utah2002]

To those guys who are ignorant about civil rights

To those guys who are ignorant about civil rights:

Civil rights apply in all over the world. As the most radical civil rights advocate, the US does not do any better than any of the others.

If a US businessman were beaten in China, there would be an issue of civil and human rights.

Now the Chinese businesswoman was beaten in the US (not in China or any other places out of the US), so there are no issues at all related to any rights! and--

that is why most of the US media keep their mouths shut!!!!!!!!!!

Well said!!

 

[voronv]

Milko: admit, you're beaten here and let's stop this, guys!

 

[yellowcard]

I think, in general, a lot of people here berate US and its institutions, yet want to work and live here, raise families... Paradoxical, isn't it?

US is the best country in the world. But it's not perfect. Otherwise, we wouldn't need to discuss about 485 at here.

I post this to let you guys know what an officer can do to a foreigner. I assume you are a foreigner. Where do you come from? I don't care. Definitely, I am not interested in berating your country. I just want to criticise the countries I plan to live in.

 

[CS001]

I am not attempting to spread my "wisdom" around here or pretentiously assert myself, so I take exception to your little jab, Cinta. I simply try to express my views in a articulate and clear manner and if you find that pretentious or pompuos (which you seem to imply), that is your problem, not mine.

I have no idea where Michael Moore comes in this discussion, so we better not go off on far tangents. I, as an immigrant, do not have the right to vote and I don't think my posts are intended to sound political, unless the topic is political.

Believe me when I say that I have a very good understanding of what traditional American values are. The fact is that this forum, as you said, is really not bound by its title and has topics of various interest to immigrants, mainly read and contributed by VSC I-485 applicant. I will take that criticism and agree that this post perhaps does belong here, those somewhat vague parameters taken into account.

However, my point still stands and that is... there has to be differentiation between actions of a single customs officers and the actions of a country. I was attempting to say that overgeneralization is usually not a good thing, but I guess that does not fly with the public here, as long as their interest is served. The ICE officer in question should be reprimanded by all means neccessary. But I would not lump this with the I-485 suit and our plight, because this community did sue John Ashcroft, but not because of stuff like this, or if it did, then we face an uphill battle. Let's not mix apples and oranges...

If the country does not condemn the action of this single customs officer, what does it tell you about the country?

This Chinese woman got beaten because she did not run. Doesn't this very fact raise the alert for everybody? Having lived in US for these years, when confronting a police officer, we were advised to do as the officer says. The worst is to run away from the officer -- you could get shot at in the worst case. Now, with this incidence, what should the Chinese woman do? You tell me. Should all of them run away from the officers? What if the officers run and catch them? Will they not be beaten then? Don't forget the Rodney King case here.

I fully support the federal prosecutor to pursue this case to its fullest extent. The police violence is unjustified.

 

[LIBDAY]

Once again, my post is grossely misunderstood. I am not implying that since she was running, she needed to be beaten up. I clearly state that I would just see some of this as a fairly reasonable precaution when trying to catch someone who might be smuggling drugs across the border. We (me and you and everyone else) do not know WHAT she was doing exactly. Do you think customs officers simply mace everyone they think is suspicious? Being a border guard is a difficult and dangerous job, it is a little more difficult to think on your feet when you are prepared for the worse, then when a database is not performing well Where I come from has absolutely nothing to do with my posts. Let's not discuss heritage and origin, but put forward relevant facts and arguments. I think this discussion is getting way too hostile... You can not agree with me, but let's not get into personal slander. This is most likely my final post on this topic.

Milko,

For once, we agreed-- Let's talk about facts and not engage in personal slander (bear in mind you are the one who has called me a cop and accused others of over-generalization and putting words in your mouth).

The fact is that Mr. Rhodes has a prior track record of using excessive force, according to the law firm that represents the victim. The fact is that Mr. Rhodes kept beating her up after she clearly stated that she had a valid passport and B-1 visa. The fact is that the details of the beating are described by other patrol guards who have the good conscience to tell the truth. The fact is that the DA's office gathered enough evidence to press charges against Mr. Rhodes. If bias has nothing to do with your attitude, at least make an effort to learn more about the facts before you pass on judgement.

Please take a look at the picture in the attached link and tell me in good consience this is not police brutality.

http://www.wenxuecity.com/BBSView.php?SubID=news&MsgID=15724

 

[mark rajiv]

I guess she was at wrong time, wrong location and met wrong person...
We should feel lucky we are not the one had such a bad incident. However, it could happen to you if you were there too... well maybe not...since you might have stayed in US for a while, you can give this officer an briliant american style smile...

 

[Milko_Djurovski]

@Pralay: and that is where your argument fails. Being an ICE officer or a law enforcement officer is by definition NOT like 99% of the jobs. While most jobs in a service type industry are driven by these same values, the primary function of a police officer is to protect and serve the law. So, was the guy wrong to mace a businesswoman? Obviously. Should he be reprimanded? If the investigation clearly shows (this guy has a right to the same benefit of the doubt at this point) that he overstepped set bounds, yes. I am not disputing that. I am disputing linking this particular event to the fight against USCIS, Ashcfort, the Patriot Law, etc... simply because that is not a fight that can be won. This community and its outspoken wing, immigrationportal.org, should stick to proving that the delays in I-485 processing are unreasonable and unconstituional. If we expand the scope of the battle, we are dead in the water... And even though this website is not really a true representation of majority of the immigration population (simply by numbers), it is certainly one of the most visible ones, if not The most visible one... So we should be careful of our actions and stances.

@yellowcard: I am clearly a foreigner, if I am an I-485 applicant.

@CS001: If this turns out to be a deliberate action, it would surprise me if the officials of some rank would not apologize to the beaten woman, as they should. My point, when you describe this story, is that whatever is on the Internet and media, might not be 100% true. So, before overwhelming condemnation of an entire agency, let's let the courts do what they do. The story is appaling, if the scenario is correct, but there could be extenuating circumstances.

@LIBDAY: I did not call you a cop, please read my posts carefully. I ASKED if you were a police officer, meaning, what merit do you have to say this is appropriate and this is not. In most cases, police officers DO NOT mace people that are innocent, regardless of the Rodney King and other cases (I am not sure if I would be using Rodney King as an example based on his character). I did not know about Mr. Rhoades' violent past, if that as well is true (remember, you are hearing this from the attorneys of a woman about to sue for millions). For the last time, no one is questioning police brutality or not. I am questioning whether this is relevant to our particular issues and more so, whether an opinion can be formed about a department, agency, branch based on this incident (I did not say single incident, I just said this one). It would probably come as a surprise to you what kind of people in some cases do jobs like this: contractors, some of whom are certainly barely on this side of the law. Violence, in a lot of cases, comes with the territory of being a police officer, it is inevitable, since you deal with that stuff all day every day.

 

[pralay]

@Pralay: and that is where your argument fails. Being an ICE officer or a law enforcement officer is by definition NOT like 99% of the jobs. While most jobs in a service type industry are driven by these same values, the primary function of a police officer is to protect and serve the law.

Ooops, it's not a police state. In a democratic society where law is blind, law jobs enforcement officer is just like other 99% jobs. It does not enjoy any special privilege from law. Now, as person you/we should respect for law enforcement officers, firefighters because of they keep law and order of society (and that's desirable). But in a civil society, everybody has a part to play - like the person in MacD counter who sales hamburger, person who drives cab, police, your sanator or American president. In the eye of law, all the job mentioned is like 99% (actually 100%).

it is certainly one of the most visible ones, if not The most visible one... So we should be careful of our actions and stances.

Careful from what?

 

[pralay]

So, before overwhelming condemnation of an entire agency, let's let the courts do what they do.

If this kind incident happens once or twice, that's probably not an agency problem (some bad elements exists in all types of jobs). If it happens occationally probably it's problem from some sections of agency. If it's happen very often, probably it's an agency problem. Now, you draw your judgement based on how many incidents you read/heard in past.

 

[Milko_Djurovski]

Ooops, it's not a police state...
Careful from what?

No one argues that it is not a police state. However, the people that are authorized to use force are usually law enforcement, not McD employees. In other words, there are cases where use of this much force is justified and needed.

Careful not to hurt our cause by saying things that might be misconstrued, granted, this is not all that bad, but some posts on this board are. As a matter of course, we can say whatever we want. Remember, this website is partially the face of the immigration community.

 

[Milko_Djurovski]

If this kind incident happens once or twice, that's probably not an agency problem (some bad elements exists in all types of jobs). If it happens occationally probably it's problem from some sections of agency. If it's happen very often, probably it's an agency problem. Now, you draw your judgement based on how many incidents you read/heard in past.

Here is you get into some gray... some of these actions are actually authorized under the Patriot Act, whether you and I like it or not. It gives law enforcement in general very broad authorities. They might be human rights violations, but it is a separate fight from the I-485 one, in my opinion.

 

[LIBDAY]

Here is you get into some gray... some of these actions are actually authorized under the Patriot Act, whether you and I like it or not. It gives law enforcement in general very broad authorities. They might be human rights violations, but it is a separate fight from the I-485 one, in my opinion.

You lost me. Where does the Patriot Act authorize physical brutality? Yes, the law may justify incarcerating potential terrorists for an extended period of time, monitoring domestic conversations or summarily deporting an otherwise inadmissible alien, but beating up an innocent tourist is by no means the legislative intent behind the patriot act.

 

[Ravi Jain]

A Chinese businesswoman was severely beaten by Homeland ....

To voronv and others;

Please do not waste your time by arguing with a person who is always under the influence of Vodka. This person is perverted and nothing but a smart a**. He has a habit of over reaction and senseless arguements. His past home might be in Serbia, but his next home should be a Mental Hospital.

Ragards,

Ravi Jain

 

[cinta]

I am not attempting to spread my "wisdom" around here or pretentiously assert myself, so I take exception to your little jab, Cinta. I simply try to express my views in a articulate and clear manner and if you find that pretentious or pompuos (which you seem to imply), that is your problem, not mine.

I have no idea where Michael Moore comes in this discussion, so we better not go off on far tangents. I, as an immigrant, do not have the right to vote and I don't think my posts are intended to sound political, unless the topic is political.

Believe me when I say that I have a very good understanding of what traditional American values are. The fact is that this forum, as you said, is really not bound by its title and has topics of various interest to immigrants, mainly read and contributed by VSC I-485 applicant. I will take that criticism and agree that this post perhaps does belong here, those somewhat vague parameters taken into account.

However, my point still stands and that is... there has to be differentiation between actions of a single customs officers and the actions of a country. I was attempting to say that overgeneralization is usually not a good thing, but I guess that does not fly with the public here, as long as their interest is served. The ICE officer in question should be reprimanded by all means neccessary. But I would not lump this with the I-485 suit and our plight, because this community did sue John Ashcroft, but not because of stuff like this, or if it did, then we face an uphill battle. Let's not mix apples and oranges...

Listen my friend,

We can have a real discussion if you wish or a third grade one,. I would not take any part in the latter. for a real discussion, it is my opinion that you should read a bit more and do some more research, otherwise it would not benefit anyone; especially the community at large. It is a pity that you cannot see the whole picture and articulate exactly what is going on. I do not have to prove to you personally where and how the USCIS budget went or did not go, why, the connection of civil rights and delays and the Chinese connection. You should find all these on your own. A good start would be reading my threads; hope I will have the time and energy to keep posting. You will get most of the facts and there will be no ifs, buts and perhaps!

In a thread a few days ago, you referenced Ashcroft and Moore and that is where my comments originated.

http://www.immigrationportal.com/showthread.php?t=135579&page=2

OK, well, if there was money to be used, perhaps it couldn't have been used for resourcing, I mean, even I cannot play the devil's advocate here. If there
truly was available money, then not expanding the resource base is a terrible mistake. I do believe that the backlogs certainly had a negative effect in
nullyfying those numbers, but, if you look at it that way, then maybe another obvious target is the lottery, even though it does not pull from the same buckets,
right, and certainly does not have the same impact.

I will again not comment against Ashcroft or try to sound like Michael Moore, but I will say that the perception is that the some recent events in American
history were used to further other agendas and the Patriot Act is certainly a prime and glaring example. But, if you look at any other developed country,
free-for-all immigration is simply not an option. The more popular the country, the tighther measures you need to have. As they say, you have to take the
good with the bad.

 

[Cole]

I don't like the way this thread ends

the words from the quoted post are just too bossy. Everyone who posted here had thought over before they posted. You don't have to say anything like "do a research", or "take both good and bad". The voice from this community is just right, but some people are deaf or pretend to be deaf to this voice.

Listen my friend,

We can have a real discussion if you wish or a third grade one,. I would not take any part in the latter. for a real discussion, it is my opinion that you should read a bit more and do some more research, otherwise it would not benefit anyone; especially the community at large. It is a pity that you cannot see the whole picture and articulate exactly what is going on. I do not have to prove to you personally where and how the USCIS budget went or did not go, why, the connection of civil rights and delays and the Chinese connection. You should find all these on your own. A good start would be reading my threads; hope I will have the time and energy to keep posting. You will get most of the facts and there will be no ifs, buts and perhaps!

In a thread a few days ago, you referenced Ashcroft and Moore and that is where my comments originated.

http://www.immigrationportal.com/showthread.php?t=135579&page=2

OK, well, if there was money to be used, perhaps it couldn't have been used for resourcing, I mean, even I cannot play the devil's advocate here. If there
truly was available money, then not expanding the resource base is a terrible mistake. I do believe that the backlogs certainly had a negative effect in
nullyfying those numbers, but, if you look at it that way, then maybe another obvious target is the lottery, even though it does not pull from the same buckets,
right, and certainly does not have the same impact.

I will again not comment against Ashcroft or try to sound like Michael Moore, but I will say that the perception is that the some recent events in American
history were used to further other agendas and the Patriot Act is certainly a prime and glaring example. But, if you look at any other developed country,
free-for-all immigration is simply not an option. The more popular the country, the tighther measures you need to have. As they say, you have to take the
good with the bad.

 

[cinta]

What kind of an end you would like buddy?

the words from the quoted post are just too bossy. Everyone who posted here had thought over before they posted. You don't have to say anything like "do a research", or "take both good and bad". The voice from this community is just right, but some people are deaf or pretend to be deaf to this voice.

Are you referring to my comments for somebody else? Are you the voice of the community? Who cares about your particular likes and dislikes? If you want an answer be more specific and leave your advices on your kitchen table. In the meantime you can do some of the research on your own before your next post.

 

[Cole]

you should do those kitchen table stuff for yourself, I believe

You think anybody would care aobut you?! You must have overestimated yourself. I suggest you to keep an appropriate profile and be a member--but not a bossy one--of this comunity. Remember you know no more than the others. You got it??

Are you referring to my comments for somebody else? Are you the voice of the community? Who cares about your particular likes and dislikes? If you want an answer be more specific and leave your advices on your kitchen table. In the meantime you can do some of the research on your own before your next post.