A Chinese businesswoman was severely beaten by Homeland Security officer

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yellowcard

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Milko_Djurovski said:
Perhaps the more appropriate advice would be: when crossing the border into the US, do not try to run from the customs officers.
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The businesswoman followed the advice. That's the reason she was beaten.
 
The other two seem ok after they ran. This poor lady got beaten because she followed instruction. Next time, when you see ICE officers, Run Forest Run! If you are not sure if you can get away, have some steroid pills in advance or consult with Marrion Jones. :D :p :rolleyes:

yellowcard said:
The businesswoman followed the advice. That's the reason she was beaten.
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How come I didn't see this news in Yahoo, CNN.com etc. Not sure if this came on TV as it involves Powell and his Chinese counterpart. Was it on purpose?
 
Well, not to get into the semantics, but I believe it was a simple oversight. China, of all places, should really not raise any human rights questions. The second thing is, they were told to come to the "guard shack" and waived over, not neccessarily told to run. Any reason they were running? Bottom line, I wouldn't read too much into this... Not sure if it is a correct post for this forum.
 
This is just another proof of a saying:

if you are too honest, you will be bullied at. Milko, your contention is biased.
 
fanshan said:
if you are too honest, you will be bullied at. Milko, your contention is biased.
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OK, I don't think I am... I am not presuming anything, like the poster seems to be. The woman could have been beat up completely innocent or not. You don't know and neither do I.

I am not biased in this case... Actually, we are all biased, but that is a different and much longer discussion.

And how do you deduce that she was too honest? Because she was running when they waved her over. My point is, based on the two or three sentences, which may or may not be fact, you cannot deduce that ICE and DHS are beating up Chinese people at entry points, just for fun. This is not a story for this forum, unless it is on an unrelated board.
 
Milko_Djurovski said:
Well, not to get into the semantics, but I believe it was a simple oversight. China, of all places, should really not raise any human rights questions. The second thing is, they were told to come to the "guard shack" and waived over, not neccessarily told to run. Any reason they were running? Bottom line, I wouldn't read too much into this... Not sure if it is a correct post for this forum.
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There is no question that China has the most pathetic human rights record and the government is merely using this incident for political gains. Having said that, however, all reasonable minds should agree that this is a typical case of excessive use of force by law enforcement officers. People from a totalitarian regime fear cops or any uniform officers, and that may explain why they run away. Even assuming they are accomplices to the drug dealer, the amount of force used should be reasonable under the circumstances for the purpose of apprehending the suspect, not to "knee her on the head or struck her head against the wall several times". It's one thing to condemn the Chinese regime for its abysmal human rights record, but totally another when an innocent (as later proven) woman was the victim of police brutality. There is also a difference between dealing with redtape with patience and condoning physical abuse.
 
No, I disagree: this is PROPER place for such postings.

Milko_Djurovski said:
China, of all places, should really not raise any human rights questions. The second thing is, ...[why] they were running?
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So, in other words if the woman from UK would be beaten this way, that would be a REAL CASE for violation of civil rights. What country ARE YOU FROM, Milko?
- Serbia? (!!!!????)

Milko_Djurovski said:
Bottom line, I wouldn't read too much into this... Not sure if it is a correct post for this forum.
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And why? - This forum is a treasury of advices based on someone's experiences. Isn't this a meaningful warning for us? Do you believe that you are immune and this may never happen to you? - Then you are wrong!
 
This is what human rights mean in the US

never get surprised when you meet with this kind of situation
 
Milko_Djurovski said:
Well, not to get into the semantics, but I believe it was a simple oversight. China, of all places, should really not raise any human rights questions. The second thing is, they were told to come to the "guard shack" and waived over, not neccessarily told to run. Any reason they were running? Bottom line, I wouldn't read too much into this... Not sure if it is a correct post for this forum.
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First of all, no country is perfect. Some do too much human rights violation some less - including United States. Therefore your comment "should really not raise any human rights questions" is does not make any sense. In that agrument every country should shut up whenever its citizen were tortured! Is that you want? In this case, the Chinese citizen was assulted with a "foreign" entity. Any country has its right to speak up for it citizen. Got it?

Secondly, the person who was assulted DID NOT run. May be the officer needed some more training to assess the situation before reacting.
 
Milko_Djurovski said:
I am not biased in this case... Actually, we are all biased, but that is a different and much longer discussion.
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Yes, but based on the information provided by media. Secondly, there are enough incidents happened after 9/11 to make immigrant community biased.

Milko_Djurovski said:
And how do you deduce that she was too honest? Because she was running when they waved her over. My point is, based on the two or three sentences, which may or may not be fact, you cannot deduce that ICE and DHS are beating up Chinese people at entry points, just for fun.
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Probably she was not honest. But that still does not equate to the assult she received. But the fact is that nobody here is taking up the the job of a court judge or jury and "deducing" that she was honest. Most of the people in this forum are immigrants therefore get alarmed when an immigrant/tourist get assulted. That's pretty much.

Nobody said here that DHS is beating up for fun. Nobody here is trying to find the agenda or reason for this incident. It was a mistake and unfortunate incident. We all were talking about the magnitude of this mistake.
 
@LIBDAY: Are you a police officer? How do we determine what is reasonable? If someone is allegedly involved in drug smuggling activities, would you not take any precaution when apprehending them? I am clearly playing the devils advocate here again, but I think there is a flip side to this that was ignored by the poster. Just trying to bring some balance to the discussion. The "reasonable" force is an issue that has long divided and polarized the public, so I am not sure if we will resolve it here.

@voronv: You are putting words in my mouth. I was simply sheding light on the fact that LIBDAY picked up on, that China is simply using this for political gains. It is simply an isolated incident. It does not matter what country I am from, you are contradicting yourself in two sentences (congratulations). It has nothing to do what be thinking I am immune, I know I am not. This forum has a clear purpose, to discuss 485 issues in the VSC. You tell me if a woman being beaten at the border has anything to do with that.

@Cole: Your opinion. Overly generalized. When it comes to systematic HR violations, such as perhaps Guantanamo, maybe. This does not qualify as a picture for "human rights" in the US.

@pralay: Yes, I got it :) Again, my point was that China is using this for political gains and the move is clearly hipocritical given its HR record. As far as her not running, I believe we might have read different articles.

fanshan said:
This is just another proof of a saying:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

if you are too honest, you will be bullied at. Milko, your contention is biased.
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If that is not a generalized statement (see: agenda), than I don't know what is.

In all this, remember that I am a I-485 applicant and an immigrant just like the majority here, I just have a different point of view on certain things. I think, in general, a lot of people here berate US and its institutions, yet want to work and live here, raise families... Paradoxical, isn't it?
 
Milko_Djurovski said:
@LIBDAY: Are you a police officer? How do we determine what is reasonable? If someone is allegedly involved in drug smuggling activities, would you not take any precaution when apprehending them? I am clearly playing the devils advocate here again, but I think there is a flip side to this that was ignored by the poster. Just trying to bring some balance to the discussion. The "reasonable" force is an issue that has long divided and polarized the public, so I am not sure if we will resolve it here.

Reasonable people may differ on what is reasonable amount of force, but your post defies every shred of reasonableness by implying that since the chiense woman was running away from something, that justifies your so called "precuation" of brutally beating up someone. No, thank you, I am not a cop, but from every post of yours, it's not difficult to discern where you come from.

@voronv: You are putting words in my mouth. I was simply sheding light on the fact that LIBDAY picked up on, that China is simply using this for political gains. It is simply an isolated incident. It does not matter what country I am from, you are contradicting yourself in two sentences (congratulations). It has nothing to do what be thinking I am immune, I know I am not. This forum has a clear purpose, to discuss 485 issues in the VSC. You tell me if a woman being beaten at the border has anything to do with that.



@Cole: Your opinion. Overly generalized. When it comes to systematic HR violations, such as perhaps Guantanamo, maybe. This does not qualify as a picture for "human rights" in the US.

@pralay: Yes, I got it :) Again, my point was that China is using this for political gains and the move is clearly hipocritical given its HR record. As far as her not running, I believe we might have read different articles.



If that is not a generalized statement (see: agenda), than I don't know what is.

In all this, remember that I am a I-485 applicant and an immigrant just like the majority here, I just have a different point of view on certain things. I think, in general, a lot of people here berate US and its institutions, yet want to work and live here, raise families... Paradoxical, isn't it?
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LIBDAY said:
Reasonable people may differ on what is reasonable amount of force, but your post defies every shred of reasonableness by implying that since the chiense woman was running away from something, that justifies your so called "precuation" of brutally beating up someone. No, thank you, I am not a cop, but from every post of yours, it's not difficult to discern where you come from.
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Once again, my post is grossely misunderstood. I am not implying that since she was running, she needed to be beaten up. I clearly state that I would just see some of this as a fairly reasonable precaution when trying to catch someone who might be smuggling drugs across the border. We (me and you and everyone else) do not know WHAT she was doing exactly. Do you think customs officers simply mace everyone they think is suspicious? Being a border guard is a difficult and dangerous job, it is a little more difficult to think on your feet when you are prepared for the worse, then when a database is not performing well :) Where I come from has absolutely nothing to do with my posts. Let's not discuss heritage and origin, but put forward relevant facts and arguments. I think this discussion is getting way too hostile... You can not agree with me, but let's not get into personal slander. This is most likely my final post on this topic.
 
To those guys who are ignorant about civil rights:

Civil rights apply in all over the world. As the most radical civil rights advocate, the US does not do any better than any of the others.

If a US businessman were beaten in China, there would be an issue of civil and human rights.

Now the Chinese businesswoman was beaten in the US (not in China or any other places out of the US), so there are no issues at all related to any rights! and--

that is why most of the US media keep their mouths shut!!!!!!!!!!
 
Milko_Djurovski said:
@LIBDAY: Are you a police officer? How do we determine what is reasonable? If someone is allegedly involved in drug smuggling activities, would you not take any precaution when apprehending them? I am clearly playing the devils advocate here again, but I think there is a flip side to this that was ignored by the poster. Just trying to bring some balance to the discussion. The "reasonable" force is an issue that has long divided and polarized the public, so I am not sure if we will resolve it here.

@voronv: You are putting words in my mouth. I was simply sheding light on the fact that LIBDAY picked up on, that China is simply using this for political gains. It is simply an isolated incident. It does not matter what country I am from, you are contradicting yourself in two sentences (congratulations). It has nothing to do what be thinking I am immune, I know I am not. This forum has a clear purpose, to discuss 485 issues in the VSC. You tell me if a woman being beaten at the border has anything to do with that.

@Cole: Your opinion. Overly generalized. When it comes to systematic HR violations, such as perhaps Guantanamo, maybe. This does not qualify as a picture for "human rights" in the US.

@pralay: Yes, I got it :) Again, my point was that China is using this for political gains and the move is clearly hipocritical given its HR record. As far as her not running, I believe we might have read different articles.



If that is not a generalized statement (see: agenda), than I don't know what is.

In all this, remember that I am a I-485 applicant and an immigrant just like the majority here, I just have a different point of view on certain things. I think, in general, a lot of people here berate US and its institutions, yet want to work and live here, raise families... Paradoxical, isn't it?
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Milko, I do not know where you came from and what your background is and how long you have been living here in the US and other places and under what circumstances but your views are not correct. Period.
From this discussion and a previous one, it seems like you are the newly found wise one. You have a right to express your opinion (freedom of speech) but accept criticism also. The same right that Michael Moore has and exercised in his movie. For that and only, hats off to Moore and the Cannes festival for awarding him the prestigious "Palm d' Or". As far as Ashcroft, this community (at least the majority) sued him in the lawsuit; we did not sue any Moores here, so you can easily see the difference between the two. This covers the previous discussion.

Forum: The forum may not be perfect but serves the immigrants and would-be immigrants needs. Press and immigration in general are very relative matters, like post 9/11 civil rights and human rights violations, etc.
That is why i maintain a thread "DHS / Press".

Case: The above discussed case is a clear case of "civil rights" violation. Period! The Chinese government and every immigrant or visa holder should complain about it.

America: It is more American to criticise all these instead of going with the wind (government of any party). A perfect example is the delays of EB I-485 applications. This is another civil rights and human rights violation worse than the Chinese government policies; because this is the land of the free, not a communist state. Now the whole human rights in China is out of the scope of this discussion but the US would never impose economic embargo against it.
 
Milko_Djurovski said:
In all this, remember that I am a I-485 applicant and an immigrant just like the majority here, I just have a different point of view on certain things. I think, in general, a lot of people here berate US and its institutions, yet want to work and live here, raise families... Paradoxical, isn't it?
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Nope. I don't berate US. In fact I love this FREE country and most of the immigrant people I know love and enjoy living here. After all it's a country built by immigrants. And, that's why I get more concerned when this kind of things happens. If this incident happened to American tourist in China, probably I would say "oh! just another red army brutality case". My concern has nothing to do with the American land, people, culture or philosophy. It's about a particular govt agency that systemically harassed tourists/immigrants in last two and half years.
 
Milko_Djurovski said:
Being a border guard is a difficult and dangerous job, it is a little more difficult to think on your feet when you are prepared for the worse, then when a database is not performing well :)
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Well....taxi-cab driving in NY/LA, working in gas-station at night (anywhere in America), being a bank teller at LA are more dangerous jobs than being a border guard at Canadian border (which is almost open). How many times did you hear that a taxi-can driver in NY killed/assulted his passenger assuming the passenger as ciminal? If the whole whole country acts as Mr. Rhodes did, everything will be disarray.
 
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