PERM business necessity?

N

natasha13

Registered Users (C)
My employer has advertised my position as needing a minimum of MS with 2 years of experience. I have a MS in Electrical Engineering along with 2 years experience. We are okay with the prevailing wage too. But now I find out that since the position "Electrical Engineer" like most other engineering jobs comes under Job Zone 4, the minimum requirements are a BS only. Hence for applying under EB-2 we will have to show M.S. as a business necessity, is that right? Also I read on the forum that all applications showing business necessity will most likely be audited, is that true?

In the above scenario does it make sense to start the advertising all over again asking for BS only and filing for EB3, thus not having to provide business necessity?
OR
Continue as planned with MS+2 yrs requirement => EB2 and take the risk of showing business necessity.

Please voice your opinions, thanks!
 
natasha13 said:
My employer has advertised my position as needing a minimum of MS with 2 years of experience. I have a MS in Electrical Engineering along with 2 years experience. We are okay with the prevailing wage too. But now I find out that since the position "Electrical Engineer" like most other engineering jobs comes under Job Zone 4, the minimum requirements are a BS only. Hence for applying under EB-2 we will have to show M.S. as a business necessity, is that right? Also I read on the forum that all applications showing business necessity will most likely be audited, is that true?

In the above scenario does it make sense to start the advertising all over again asking for BS only and filing for EB3, thus not having to provide business necessity?
OR
Continue as planned with MS+2 yrs requirement => EB2 and take the risk of showing business necessity.

Please voice your opinions, thanks!
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Position of "Electrical Engineer" is very unlikely to get aprroved under EB-2 even if you show business necessity.

Your only option to get in to EB-2 is if you can present your case and Managerial position such as Engineering Manager in wich case the PWD could be very high.

Else your only option is to file in EB-3.
 
APD said:
Position of "Electrical Engineer" is very unlikely to get aprroved under EB-2 even if you show business necessity.

Your only option to get in to EB-2 is if you can present your case and Managerial position such as Engineering Manager in wich case the PWD could be very high.

Else your only option is to file in EB-3.
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why do u say it is tough for electrical engineering to get approved in EB-2? how do u know?
what about civil engineering, could it be accepted under Eb-2 if there is a buisness necessity?
 
Almost all engineering occupations (civil, electrical, mechanical, computer ect..) in job zone 4 only.

If an IT employer justifing Bussiness need of MS or BS+5 year exp for an IT position, it is applicable to all engineering occupations including electrical engineer.
 
perm_lc said:
Almost all engineering occupations (civil, electrical, mechanical, computer ect..) in job zone 4 only.

If an IT employer justifing Bussiness need of MS or BS+5 year exp for an IT position, it is applicable to all engineering occupations including electrical engineer.
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i know that civil engineering needs buisness necessity to apply for EB-2.but if the company shows this buisness necessity to DOL, why wouldn't DOL accept it? I don't understand this point?
 
antonioa77 said:
i know that civil engineering needs buisness necessity to apply for EB-2.but if the company shows this buisness necessity to DOL, why wouldn't DOL accept it? I don't understand this point?
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It is upto the DOL to accept or deny the bussiness necessity of the employer to have a higher requirements (MS or BS+5yrs) for an occupation that falls under Jobzone 4 and Bachelor degree is the normal educational requirement for this position. This concept is applicable to all occupations including the IT positions. It is not mentioed anywhere that DOL deny the bussiness necessity of any occupations other than IT.

It is based on actual faithful recuirement of the employer to have a such higher requirements and how they present to the DOL.
 
Hi friends,
What is the requirments for Network Admin. EB3 in terms of education and experience.
Thanks in Advance
 
antonioa77 said:
why do u say it is tough for electrical engineering to get approved in EB-2? how do u know?
what about civil engineering, could it be accepted under Eb-2 if there is a buisness necessity?
Click to expand...

I had a detailed discussion with a good lawyer on this.

It is not the strem of engineering (civil, electrical, mechanical, computer ect..)that matters. The problem is that almost all the engineering titles fall under Job Zone 4 with SVP of 7 to 8.

Historically all the cases with SVP 8 or less have not been approved for EB-2 in the past and same will be the situation in future.

In the previous system there were no Job Zones so for a position of Software Engineer it was possible file it under both Eb-3 & Eb-2. The employer could put Masters Degree or Bachelor's +5 years with SVP of 8 or more and file it under EB-2.

In the new system all these titles fall under Job Zone 4 which required minimum education of Bachelor's Degree and SVP of 7 or 8. So even if the empoyers projects a business necessity of a Masters' Degree still it will be SVP 7 to 8 and hence the certifying office will not approve it for EB2.

This is why I said it will be very tough to get the position of "Electrical Engineer" otr for that matter a "Civil engineer" or "Software Engineer" to get an EB-2 approval.

Only if you are able to file it in a Managerial Position it will be possible to justify the Business Necessity and file it under EB-2.

Hope this gives you some idea.
 
APD said:
I had a detailed discussion with a good lawyer on this.

It is not the strem of engineering (civil, electrical, mechanical, computer ect..)that matters. The problem is that almost all the engineering titles fall under Job Zone 4 with SVP of 7 to 8.

Historically all the cases with SVP 8 or less have not been approved for EB-2 in the past and same will be the situation in future.

In the previous system there were no Job Zones so for a position of Software Engineer it was possible file it under both Eb-3 & Eb-2. The employer could put Masters Degree or Bachelor's +5 years with SVP of 8 or more and file it under EB-2.

In the new system all these titles fall under Job Zone 4 which required minimum education of Bachelor's Degree and SVP of 7 or 8. So even if the empoyers projects a business necessity of a Masters' Degree still it will be SVP 7 to 8 and hence the certifying office will not approve it for EB2.

This is why I said it will be very tough to get the position of "Electrical Engineer" otr for that matter a "Civil engineer" or "Software Engineer" to get an EB-2 approval.

Only if you are able to file it in a Managerial Position it will be possible to justify the Business Necessity and file it under EB-2.

Hope this gives you some idea.
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ok u r saying that in the previous system there is no job zone. i don't agree with u on that, i filed like 1 yr ago under RIR for civil engineering and it says jobzone 4.in the previous system there was no education and training code. so I'm doubtful about this analysis given above. can u clarify?
 
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EB-2 for engineers

Thank you all for your inputs above. I cross-checked with two different attorneys on this and following is what they have to say.

Its true that under PERM all engineering positions will be considered under EB3 category since they come under job zone 4. However the only way they can go into EB-2 is if employer shows the MS qualification as a business necessity. When employer shows business necessity the application is most likely to be audited. HOWEVER IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT APPN WILL BE DENIED. Everyone is simply speculating at this point on this, and the rumour that if you show business necessity it will be a denial is completely untrue, however it could take more time due to the audit.

All said and done in the pre-PERM system it was much simpler for MS/PhD degrees to go into EB2 for most engineering jobs since all that was needed was the employer claiming business necessity. In PERM since they have their added test of assigning positions to job zones, only employer's claim to business necessity might not be enough.

Finally as and when people start filing and getting results (appns/denials) we will get a clearer picture.

Hope this helps.
 
What about the senior software engineer positions?

Hey Gurus,
What about the senior software engineer positions? My company recruits the persons with minimum with 5 yrs exp for senior positions.
Does the company has to recruit only bs + 2 years experience persons for senior positions also?
 
asnmurty said:
Hey Gurus,
What about the senior software engineer positions? My company recruits the persons with minimum with 5 yrs exp for senior positions.
Does the company has to recruit only bs + 2 years experience persons for senior positions also?
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ANSWER:

Yes if the software position is in Job zone 4, it NEEDS a business necessity, even if you have 20 years of experience. Infact its a bigger problem for software positions as compared to Engineering positions for justifying business needs.

However if your senior position comes in job zone 5 and you are ok with the prevailing wage, u r good to go in Eb-2 (ofcourse and u have BS+ 5yrs progressive exp).
 
natasha13 said:
ANSWER:

Yes if the software position is in Job zone 4, it NEEDS a business necessity, even if you have 20 years of experience. Infact its a bigger problem for software positions as compared to Engineering positions for justifying business needs.

However if your senior position comes in job zone 5 and you are ok with the prevailing wage, u r good to go in Eb-2 (ofcourse and u have BS+ 5yrs progressive exp).
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why u say that buisness necesiity for engineering is easier than for computer programing?how do u know that?
 
antonioa77 said:
why u say that buisness necesiity for engineering is easier than for computer programing?how do u know that?
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Not my opinion, it is my attorney's view. We are filing PERM for engineering as well as software positions in my company, and that was his comment on it.
 
I am not saying that i have either 5 or 20 years experience. My company has a standard that requires atleast 5 years of experience for Senior software positions.
 
natasha13 said:
My employer has advertised my position as needing a minimum of MS with 2 years of experience. I have a MS in Electrical Engineering along with 2 years experience. We are okay with the prevailing wage too. But now I find out that since the position "Electrical Engineer" like most other engineering jobs comes under Job Zone 4, the minimum requirements are a BS only. Hence for applying under EB-2 we will have to show M.S. as a business necessity, is that right? Also I read on the forum that all applications showing business necessity will most likely be audited, is that true?

In the above scenario does it make sense to start the advertising all over again asking for BS only and filing for EB3, thus not having to provide business necessity?
OR
Continue as planned with MS+2 yrs requirement => EB2 and take the risk of showing business necessity.

Please voice your opinions, thanks!
Click to expand...

just curious with the new 4 level system for PW(prevailing wwage), what was ur level defined by SWA? 1,2,3 or 4 for ur advertisment? what is the requirement in advertisement in ur position MS+2 yrs or 0 yrs expereince or what?
 
No reply from SWA with PW level as yet

antonioa77 said:
just curious with the new 4 level system for PW(prevailing wwage), what was ur level defined by SWA? 1,2,3 or 4 for ur advertisment? what is the requirement in advertisement in ur position MS+2 yrs or 0 yrs expereince or what?
Click to expand...

ANSWER:

I think my first post was a bit confusing. We have submitted the prevailing wage form to the SWA exactly 3 weeks ago. SWA has not got back to us as yet. We have asked for MS with 2 yrs exp. The reason I said we are okay with the prevailing wage is because my bigger concern is EB-2 business necessity justification, assuming SWA does not get back with completely unreasonable PW level.

In how many days did SWA get back to you guys with the prevailing wage?
 
natasha13 said:
ANSWER:

I think my first post was a bit confusing. We have submitted the prevailing wage form to the SWA exactly 3 weeks ago. SWA has not got back to us as yet. We have asked for MS with 2 yrs exp. The reason I said we are okay with the prevailing wage is because my bigger concern is EB-2 business necessity justification, assuming SWA does not get back with completely unreasonable PW level.

In how many days did SWA get back to you guys with the prevailing wage?
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what do u expect that ur prevailing wage will be level 2 or 3? what does ur lawyer expect?I'm asking because i have a similar case (MS civil engineer+0 yr exper) and I'm thinkin filling through PERM but PW would a problem for me.
 
antonioa77 said:
what do u expect that ur prevailing wage will be level 2 or 3? what does ur lawyer expect?I'm asking because i have a similar case (MS civil engineer+0 yr exper) and I'm thinkin filling through PERM but PW would a problem for me.
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ANSWER:

My lawyer speculates it will be 2. I can let you know when SWA gets back to us. What have you heard from other people with MS requirements?
 
natasha13 said:
ANSWER:

My lawyer speculates it will be 2. I can let you know when SWA gets back to us. What have you heard from other people with MS requirements?
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well thanks for ur help. I expected too level 2.I don't knwo anybody who went through this yet.hope to hear back from SWA soon. and keep us informed once u get it.
 
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