So same employer same employee 2nd PERM in EB2 dead? if 1st PERM in EB3 approved?

Chicago Desi

Registered Users (C)
In light of the following posting on http://www.immigration-law.com/, if an employer wants to file 2nd PERM (in EB2) for the same employee when 1st PERM (in EB3) is already approved, will be denied. Has any one gone through this situation? Please post your experiences and thoughts. Thanks.

09/23/2006: DOL Policy on Multiple PERM Applications by Same Employer for Same Employee

The current policy is that when the same employer files a second PERM application for the same employee when there is a prior PERM application filed by the same employer for the same employee which is still pending or approved, National Processing Centers automatically deny the second PERM application. DOl intends to change this practice, but until such change is materialized, the DOL will continue its current policy not allowing more than one PERM application certifications for the same employer and same employee in the following manner:
If the employer has already obtained certification of one PERM application and filed a second PERM application, the National Processing Center will continuously deny the second application. Once the second PERM application is denied such, the employer can file a motion to reconsider the denial, but such motion will not be considered unless the employer first files the requiest to withdraw the first certified PERM application and surrender the "original" certified PERM application form, ETA 9089. If the employer has already filed I-140 petition based on the first certified PERM application, since the employer no longer possesses the "original" certified ETA 9089, the withdrawal of the first certified application may be undertaken in order to save the second PERM application vis a motion to reconsider by submitting proof of the employer's withdrawal of pending or approved I-140 petition. Otherwise, the second PERM application will be denied.
If the employer has already obtained certification of one PERM application,but wants to file a second PERM application, the employer is required to withdraw the certified first application and surrender the original certified ETA 9089 before the employer can file the second PERM application. Otherwise, the second PERM application will be denied.
If the employer has filed a PERM application which is still pending, and if the employer wants to file a second PERM application, the employer must file a request for withdrawal before filing a second PERM application. Otherwise, the second application will be denied.
The foregoing policy has no effect on the certified PERM applications whatsoever as the certified labor certification application can not be invalidated unless there was a fraud. The foregoing policy is related to the second PERM application which has yet to be filed or certified. Accordingly, the first application which is either pending or certified will not be affected even if a second application is filed and denied.
The DOL is currently working on changes in the software logic to launch as early as October 2006 which will change the current practice and policy. Under the new system, the machine will not automatically deny the second application. Once the machine detects the multiple filings by the same employer for the same employer, the analysts will review the two applications comparing the two cases, and if necessary, will launch an audit to learn the reasons for second filing. Consequently, the employer will no longer see automatic denial of second application by the decision matrix once the new system is in place.
 
Chicago Desi said:
No body filed 2nd PERM from same employer?
I did, check my signature. And I'm not the only one, who did it. I saw other ppl postings on this board about successfull approvals.

I might be wrong, but I think that Mr. Oh has exaggerated the problem. I've checked other lawyers' news postings but nobody has mentioned anything about it. Also, this is not the first time, he makes a mount from a mole's hill. ;-)
 
-me- said:
I did, check my signature. And I'm not the only one, who did it. I saw other ppl postings on this board about successfull approvals.

I might be wrong, but I think that Mr. Oh has exaggerated the problem. I've checked other lawyers' news postings but nobody has mentioned anything about it. Also, this is not the first time, he makes a mount from a mole's hill. ;-)

Thanks for replying -me-. So your employer filed your first PERM in EB3 and after it's approval your employer filed second PERM in EB2 and it too got approved. WOW. That sure gives me a lot of hope.

Could you please confirm that both your PERMs were filed by the same employer. And any thing special you/your employer/attorney had to do to make it float smoothly? Any advice, link, pointer will be highly appreciated.
 
Hi Chicago Desi,
Yes, both my LCs were filed by the same company (my current employer).
It didn't go smoothly actually. You might notice it took 4 months to get the LC approved. Also, the company lawyer didn't want to file the second LC at all. It took me 5 months to break her resistance.
If you decide to go ahead with the second LC, make sure the position is real different than it was in the first LC. Different criteria, different title, different description.

Good luck!

Chicago Desi said:
Thanks for replying -me-. So your employer filed your first PERM in EB3 and after it's approval your employer filed second PERM in EB2 and it too got approved. WOW. That sure gives me a lot of hope.

Could you please confirm that both your PERMs were filed by the same employer. And any thing special you/your employer/attorney had to do to make it float smoothly? Any advice, link, pointer will be highly appreciated.
 
-me- said:
Hi Chicago Desi,
Yes, both my LCs were filed by the same company (my current employer).
It didn't go smoothly actually.

--- Did you get an audit? RFE?

You might notice it took 4 months to get the LC approved. Also, the company lawyer didn't want to file the second LC at all. It took me 5 months to break her resistance.

-- You are lucky in this regard. My 1st PERM was filed 18 months ago and 2nd has not been filed yet.

If you decide to go ahead with the second LC, make sure the position is real different than it was in the first LC. Different criteria, different title, different description.

--- Thanks for the advice. Although I tried my best but company's lawyers and red tape may play unforeseeable roles. :(


Good luck!
 
Chicago Desi said:
--- Did you get an audit? RFE?

No.

Chicago Desi said:
-- You are lucky in this regard. My 1st PERM was filed 18 months ago and 2nd has not been filed yet.
--- Thanks for the advice. Although I tried my best but company's lawyers and red tape may play unforeseeable roles.

If you can't change the lawyer (e.g. company's one), try to get the second opinion from another lawyer and bring it over to your company management.
 
-me- said:
No.

--- Then why did it take 4 months?

If you can't change the lawyer (e.g. company's one), try to get the second opinion from another lawyer and bring it over to your company management.

--- I can't :( . Confidentiality and other BS. :mad:
 
Chicago Desi said:
--- Then why did it take 4 months?
I don't know. The first LC (EB3) also took 100+ days. I guess the lawyer was implementing a wrong strategy.

Chicago Desi said:
I can't . Confidentiality and other BS.

I had been said the same crap. Then I made the scandal public. Two VPs were sitting and discussing the problem how to keep the programmer onboard. ;-) Not sure you can implement the same strategy, it's really risky and depends on your specific situation.
 
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-me- said:
I don't know. The first LC (EB3) also took 100+ days. I guess the lawyer was implementing a wrong strategy.

--- Makes one wonder what happened in the meanwhile!!!

I had been said the same crap. Then I made the scandal public. Two VPs were sitting and discussing the problem how to keep the programmer onboard. ;-) Not sure you can implement the same strategy, it's really risky and depends on your specific situation.

--- I wouldn't want a full blown interaction b/w company's lawyer and the 2nd lawyer but an independent review from another one might help iron the wrinkles. :(
 
Chicago Desi said:
--- I wouldn't want a full blown interaction b/w company's lawyer and the 2nd lawyer but an independent review from another one might help iron the wrinkles.
"A la ger kom a la ger" (Deutch)
 
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