Export to India
- Thread starter Surya13
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deputydawg
Registered Users (C)
hahahahaha. that is hilarious. i wonder how much truth is in that argument although it sounds quite convincing. My personal opinion is that eventually globalization would have caught up with american/european companies. In order for them to compete, they would have had to eventually cut labor costs by utilizing cheap foreign labor, in this situation it happens to be white collar professionals. So regardless of anti immigration lobbying, this reverse brain/job drain was inevitable.
I believe in the next decade, we will see India, Phillipines and China among other asian and eastern european countries achieve a standard of living that would have been unthinkable even in the early 90s when i was growing up.
I believe in the next decade, we will see India, Phillipines and China among other asian and eastern european countries achieve a standard of living that would have been unthinkable even in the early 90s when i was growing up.
VellaMunda
Registered Users (C)
All physics students know that every system has a feedback effect that controls the speed at which the system is changing.
The system can be anything....it could be "Environment" System or it could be "Population" system. Yes, the "weather" of earth has a feedback system....When temperature at certain parts of the world increses beyond the system's limit, weather patterns change and the temperature comes down. Similarly, "population" system has a feeback effect too. When population grows out of ontrol, some natural disasters happen and poulation growth is reduced. The two World Wars were result of feedback effect of population. It is a fact that more people have died of wars than all natural disasters till date.
So, my point is...the export of jobs to India is actually part of feedback of the Economic system. No country's economy can grow unchecked unlimited. In the 19th and 20th century, the machine made goods from western countries flooded asian and Indian markets, forcing home and cottege industries out of business. Ironically, the reason they went out of business was because machine made goods from Western countries were cheaper than hand made goods Made in India.
The system can be anything....it could be "Environment" System or it could be "Population" system. Yes, the "weather" of earth has a feedback system....When temperature at certain parts of the world increses beyond the system's limit, weather patterns change and the temperature comes down. Similarly, "population" system has a feeback effect too. When population grows out of ontrol, some natural disasters happen and poulation growth is reduced. The two World Wars were result of feedback effect of population. It is a fact that more people have died of wars than all natural disasters till date.
So, my point is...the export of jobs to India is actually part of feedback of the Economic system. No country's economy can grow unchecked unlimited. In the 19th and 20th century, the machine made goods from western countries flooded asian and Indian markets, forcing home and cottege industries out of business. Ironically, the reason they went out of business was because machine made goods from Western countries were cheaper than hand made goods Made in India.
Ganesh Ranganathan
Member
another view
I am sure these type of anti immigration comments were thrown around when manufacturing moved out of US during 80’s and 90’s.
Now the uproar for this white collar displacement would be heard by many folks and probably made louder because of quickly spreading e-media like internet/email etc. because in the 80’s and early 90’s this media was unavailable.
I am sure these type of anti immigration comments were thrown around when manufacturing moved out of US during 80’s and 90’s.
Now the uproar for this white collar displacement would be heard by many folks and probably made louder because of quickly spreading e-media like internet/email etc. because in the 80’s and early 90’s this media was unavailable.
VellaMunda
Registered Users (C)
That is correct. The same type of arguments were presented at that time as well. But at that time, economy was going up....now the economy is going South..and with Media hype...all of this blown up un proportinately.
Job Drain
It is not the curb on the H1B that is sending the job to India.
It is the cheaper labor costs. BPO (business process outsourcing)
is a big thing now. The big companies have got a taste of it. They
want more of it. Doing the jobs in India is even cheaper than
doing the same job for a lesser conventional rates in USA using
H1B labor.
Would one pay a programmer $40000 or a fraction of it if
essential quality can be obtained in the latter case for simple
maintenance activities or even fast and rough development
activities?
The feedback effect is partly what we are seeing in this process.
Some part of the economic system is making use of the
cheap labor when it is convenient to do so.
The BPO is ocurring at a rapid pace leading to gutting of I/T
in several big companies. All of this rationalized by some
as globalization. The American workers suffer in the end in
this case. It also affects high paid foreign workers trying to
do the similar jobs here. Computer programming is not career
in the future if one wants to make a lot of money. Same can be
said about manufacturing or some back-office activities
such as accounting and finance.
One should read Adam Smith or John Maynard Keynes
to understand the equilibrium problem
and possible disruptions to the same.
Adam Smith long ago described this land-labor-capital
problem in eloquent terms. John Maynard Keynes described
the depression problem. We need him right now to bail the
US economy out of its doldrums. People are trying nostrums like
tax cuts. But even Keynes cannot help tide the cheap labor
problem.
It is not the curb on the H1B that is sending the job to India.
It is the cheaper labor costs. BPO (business process outsourcing)
is a big thing now. The big companies have got a taste of it. They
want more of it. Doing the jobs in India is even cheaper than
doing the same job for a lesser conventional rates in USA using
H1B labor.
Would one pay a programmer $40000 or a fraction of it if
essential quality can be obtained in the latter case for simple
maintenance activities or even fast and rough development
activities?
The feedback effect is partly what we are seeing in this process.
Some part of the economic system is making use of the
cheap labor when it is convenient to do so.
The BPO is ocurring at a rapid pace leading to gutting of I/T
in several big companies. All of this rationalized by some
as globalization. The American workers suffer in the end in
this case. It also affects high paid foreign workers trying to
do the similar jobs here. Computer programming is not career
in the future if one wants to make a lot of money. Same can be
said about manufacturing or some back-office activities
such as accounting and finance.
One should read Adam Smith or John Maynard Keynes
to understand the equilibrium problem
and possible disruptions to the same.
Adam Smith long ago described this land-labor-capital
problem in eloquent terms. John Maynard Keynes described
the depression problem. We need him right now to bail the
US economy out of its doldrums. People are trying nostrums like
tax cuts. But even Keynes cannot help tide the cheap labor
problem.
deputydawg
Registered Users (C)
vrajan
exactly. in this case the sufferers are not only american white collar workers but eventually also some of us immigrants if our jobs are going to be done in countries with much cheaper labor costs. More opportunity and better pay are two of the main reasons cited when white collar workers immigrate to the U.S.
I have been reading in almost every business journal how even two years ago, large companies were skeptical about offshore work and they would only commit, say 1-2 million dollars max to these efforts. Now they are saying, the hell with pilot projects, I need cost savings now, so they have tremendously increased the outsourcing chunk of their activities to reap these cost savings.
It's funny how very few indians now want to come to the u.s. anymore since they are enjoying a comparatively decent standard of living in india. When i was in school, students from malaysia, indonesia, singapore could not wait to return back to their countries after their degree because jobs were guaranteed and opprtunities were abundant. I think a similar trend may now take place in india and china.
exactly. in this case the sufferers are not only american white collar workers but eventually also some of us immigrants if our jobs are going to be done in countries with much cheaper labor costs. More opportunity and better pay are two of the main reasons cited when white collar workers immigrate to the U.S.
I have been reading in almost every business journal how even two years ago, large companies were skeptical about offshore work and they would only commit, say 1-2 million dollars max to these efforts. Now they are saying, the hell with pilot projects, I need cost savings now, so they have tremendously increased the outsourcing chunk of their activities to reap these cost savings.
It's funny how very few indians now want to come to the u.s. anymore since they are enjoying a comparatively decent standard of living in india. When i was in school, students from malaysia, indonesia, singapore could not wait to return back to their countries after their degree because jobs were guaranteed and opprtunities were abundant. I think a similar trend may now take place in india and china.
As alien workers, we come to America not only to enjoy freedom like current American ancestors did, but to contribute our skills, knowledge, experience, energy and youth to America. The reason America is the strongest country is that it contains most elites in the world, who come from different countries. We contribute a lot to America. Most American people realize that. However, how we are treated? We are treated like beggars, aren’t we? Especially BCIS treats us like homeless, not respectful human-beings. We come to America for the faith that “People are equal in front of GOD”. But are we equally treated while we are here? Most guys of BCIS go to churches every Sunday, and sing in front of GOD. But they never treat us as brothers or sisters in front of GOD. Because we are alien, no matter how hard we work, no matter how smart we are, no matter how big we contribute, we are treated as inferior beggars by BCIS.
VellaMunda
Registered Users (C)
If anyone gets offended by reading my comments....I apologize in advance..
Listen - Beggers can't be chosers....Not that I endorse BCIS slowness....but if you do not like USA, go back to your country. The fact of the matter is that we all left (read "desrted") our home country where we were born and educated and came to a foreign country. What is the guarentee that you will not do the same to your "adopted" country (read USA). So, either be patient and accept however this country treats you.....or pack your bags and back to India and contribute our skills, knowledge, experience, energy and youth (whatever is remaining after waiting for GC) and ...How about that??
Listen - Beggers can't be chosers....Not that I endorse BCIS slowness....but if you do not like USA, go back to your country. The fact of the matter is that we all left (read "desrted") our home country where we were born and educated and came to a foreign country. What is the guarentee that you will not do the same to your "adopted" country (read USA). So, either be patient and accept however this country treats you.....or pack your bags and back to India and contribute our skills, knowledge, experience, energy and youth (whatever is remaining after waiting for GC) and ...How about that??
deputydawg
Registered Users (C)
blametsc
When I came to the U.S. for the first time, I knew zero about its history and knew even less about its culture other than what I learnt from hollywood movies and tv shows, which as we all know is an exaggerated depiction of real life.
In college, every student had to take mandatory American history classes, which is where i learnt about how this country was built. Every first generation immigrants go through the same thing, i.e some form of prejudice or the other. It is the second generation i.e. our sons and daughters who will be fully assimilated into society. But as a whole, Americans treat its immigrants and guests far better than any country I have lived in, visited, heard about. Almost every week, there is something in the way everyday life works in the U.S. that impresses me, as compared to my birth country. So in the end, we should all be thankful we ended up here and not say, south africa or UAE or England or even any of the Scandanivian countries.
When I came to the U.S. for the first time, I knew zero about its history and knew even less about its culture other than what I learnt from hollywood movies and tv shows, which as we all know is an exaggerated depiction of real life.
In college, every student had to take mandatory American history classes, which is where i learnt about how this country was built. Every first generation immigrants go through the same thing, i.e some form of prejudice or the other. It is the second generation i.e. our sons and daughters who will be fully assimilated into society. But as a whole, Americans treat its immigrants and guests far better than any country I have lived in, visited, heard about. Almost every week, there is something in the way everyday life works in the U.S. that impresses me, as compared to my birth country. So in the end, we should all be thankful we ended up here and not say, south africa or UAE or England or even any of the Scandanivian countries.
for a moment forget about the type of job done...
the immigration officers are asked to do a job - adjudicate, customer support, etc. they are paid to do that job. so aren't they supposed to do that. it doesn't matter whether it is immigrant stuff or any other job. the fact is - u r paid to do something, so you do it. if you don't feel like doing it because you don't like the beneficiaries because they are aliens, terrorists etc, or just don't care, then quit your job and fight it out another way (say, these bcis officers could campaign saying - no more GCs). no point in extracting salary without doing anything.
basically, i would call these people (only those bcis officers who don't do anything and can lie just like that) without moral. they don't fear god. so whatever church (or anything) they go to it is useless.
and yes we chose this, we are always free to say - to hell with GC and go back to our countries. so i am not complaining that i am treated like a begger, but is just that these people don't do their job. and yes i think we very much have the right to complain that - because we paid a application fee for that.
the immigration officers are asked to do a job - adjudicate, customer support, etc. they are paid to do that job. so aren't they supposed to do that. it doesn't matter whether it is immigrant stuff or any other job. the fact is - u r paid to do something, so you do it. if you don't feel like doing it because you don't like the beneficiaries because they are aliens, terrorists etc, or just don't care, then quit your job and fight it out another way (say, these bcis officers could campaign saying - no more GCs). no point in extracting salary without doing anything.
basically, i would call these people (only those bcis officers who don't do anything and can lie just like that) without moral. they don't fear god. so whatever church (or anything) they go to it is useless.
and yes we chose this, we are always free to say - to hell with GC and go back to our countries. so i am not complaining that i am treated like a begger, but is just that these people don't do their job. and yes i think we very much have the right to complain that - because we paid a application fee for that.
deputydawg
Registered Users (C)
TMC
In the end it boils down to ethics. Do you feel good about taking a salary, however small that may be, for doing nothing. And i do mean nothing because 1-2 adjudications a week by god knows how many officers is equivalent to doing nothing.
I wish I could blame it on civil servants but I've seen in local courts and other government offices like Secretary of State etc. where people work very hard, more so then you and I even sitting in a cubicle. I don't know if BCIS attracts lazy people or do people become slow once they join due to the work climate, who knows.
In the end it boils down to ethics. Do you feel good about taking a salary, however small that may be, for doing nothing. And i do mean nothing because 1-2 adjudications a week by god knows how many officers is equivalent to doing nothing.
I wish I could blame it on civil servants but I've seen in local courts and other government offices like Secretary of State etc. where people work very hard, more so then you and I even sitting in a cubicle. I don't know if BCIS attracts lazy people or do people become slow once they join due to the work climate, who knows.
yes deputydawg, it is ethics...
i have seen people in other government offices like irs ( i happened to apply for a ITIN for my spouse when i came here and had a very nice experience. and also at DL office a very nice experience) work hard (in the sense that they do what is expected of them). why can't these people do the same. if ins compains that they lose mails, responses etc because of the volume, how come USPS or UPS handle it. they also have huge volumes but they have far less complaints (i assume).
it is just that TSC doesn't know how to manage their resources. they are doing it all wrong. assuming 1000 485 applications are pending - correspondingly 2000 EADs and APs each are pending (including the spouse). and the longer it takes for 485 the more of other applications. they can easily cut down the applications.
also, what is needed of 485 - as along as a person has perfect medical, FBI cleared, name check cleared, and 140 approved, the person is good to go right? i mean what extra the officer needs to check other than say a RFE on employment? in fact it looks to me 140 takes more time than 485.
i have seen people in other government offices like irs ( i happened to apply for a ITIN for my spouse when i came here and had a very nice experience. and also at DL office a very nice experience) work hard (in the sense that they do what is expected of them). why can't these people do the same. if ins compains that they lose mails, responses etc because of the volume, how come USPS or UPS handle it. they also have huge volumes but they have far less complaints (i assume).
it is just that TSC doesn't know how to manage their resources. they are doing it all wrong. assuming 1000 485 applications are pending - correspondingly 2000 EADs and APs each are pending (including the spouse). and the longer it takes for 485 the more of other applications. they can easily cut down the applications.
also, what is needed of 485 - as along as a person has perfect medical, FBI cleared, name check cleared, and 140 approved, the person is good to go right? i mean what extra the officer needs to check other than say a RFE on employment? in fact it looks to me 140 takes more time than 485.