B.S and MS degree in PERM

H

helpwithGC

Registered Users (C)
What would be the equivalent of BS + 5 years exp for a Job Zone 5 title if we are are to give Masters as a requirement.

I guess my question is, if in the PW request we put Bachelors + 5 as the requirement, how much exp should we be putting along with Masters ( in the alternate exp/education column ) in the PERM application?

I am not clear if

MS + 1 year = BS + 5 years or if it is
MS = BS + 5 years.

Gurus please help?
 
helpwithGC said:
What would be the equivalent of BS + 5 years exp for a Job Zone 5 title if we are are to give Masters as a requirement.

I guess my question is, if in the PW request we put Bachelors + 5 as the requirement, how much exp should we be putting along with Masters ( in the alternate exp/education column ) in the PERM application?

I am not clear if

MS + 1 year = BS + 5 years or if it is
MS = BS + 5 years.

Gurus please help?
Click to expand...
USCIS & DOL has different statergy in this issue. DOL uses SVP that make sense. BS+5yrs exp will be equivalent to MS+3years exp. Both has 7 years of preperation time. However, USCIS says just MS is equal to BS+5 yrs exp. There is a good article about this in ilw.com
 
Gc_puli said:
USCIS & DOL has different statergy in this issue. DOL uses SVP that make sense. BS+5yrs exp will be equivalent to MS+3years exp. Both has 7 years of preperation time. However, USCIS says just MS is equal to BS+5 yrs exp. There is a good article about this in ilw.com
Click to expand...


Yes as GC_puli said, they have completely messed up this situation in PERM as DOL does not look at BS/MS/SVP the same way as USCIS does. Read the link on Chikuntala case by ilw.

DOL interpretation:
BS+5=MS+3= 7years SVP

USCIS:
BS+5=MS
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Job Zone 4 in EB2 w/out business necesity

So we could show that the Job need BS + 2/ MS as the requirement ( which could be in Job Zone 4 w/out business necessity, as SVP of just 4) and have it under EB2????
Does that sound right?
 
But the question whether we qualify under EB2 or EB3 comes at i-140 stage and not at Labor cert.so we need to worry more with the stds. of USCIS.

am i wrong with my suggestions?? plz. share ur thoughts
 
helpwithGC said:
So we could show that the Job need BS + 2/ MS as the requirement ( which could be in Job Zone 4 w/out business necessity, as SVP of just 4) and have it under EB2????
Does that sound right?
Click to expand...


BS+2 / MS requirement will get you through Ok with DOL for a job zone 4 (SVP 4 yrs) without having to show business necessity.

BUT
There is no way USCIS will allow BS+2 requirement equated to an MS for EB-2, they will then downgrade to EB-3.
 
Well, you have to file LC with job requirements such that it should qualify EB2 or EB3. Once LC is given, and job requirements mandated in LC, it cannot be changed w/o refiling LC, which is how many years? That's why.
 
maverick13 - from what I understand - SVP is a scale, # of years of experience equates to a number on the SVP scale. So 2 yrs of experience equals SVP of 7, and 4 years of experience equates to SVP of 8.
For job zone 4, if you hit SVP of 8 (which you will if you have MS), you have to show business necessity, since SVP of 7 < 8 is needed for job zone 4.

Can anyone confirm this with their lawyers?
 
wildscenebob said:
maverick13 - from what I understand - SVP is a scale, # of years of experience equates to a number on the SVP scale. So 2 yrs of experience equals SVP of 7, and 4 years of experience equates to SVP of 8.
For job zone 4, if you hit SVP of 8 (which you will if you have MS), you have to show business necessity, since SVP of 7 < 8 is needed for job zone 4.

Can anyone confirm this with their lawyers?
Click to expand...


wildscenebob: As long as # of years of SVP is 4 you are still at SVP scale 7. This is very clear from the explanation given below. The moment your # of years of SVP goes over 4, it becomes SVP scale 8. As given below think of them as mutually exclusive, tell me if that makes sense.

The following is an explanation of the various levels of specific vocational
preparation:
Level Time
1 Short demonstration only
2 Anything beyond short demonstration up to and including 1 month
3 Over 1 month up to and including 3 months
4 Over 3 months up to and including 6 months
5 Over 6 months up to and including 1 year
6 Over 1 year up to and including 2 years
7 Over 2 years up to and including 4 years
8 Over 4 years up to and including 10 years
9 Over 10 years
Note: The levels of this scale are mutually exclusive and do not overlap.
 
maverick13 said:
wildscenebob: As long as # of years of SVP is 4 you are still at SVP scale 7. This is very clear from the explanation given below. The moment your # of years of SVP goes over 4, it becomes SVP scale 8. As given below think of them as mutually exclusive, tell me if that makes sense.

The following is an explanation of the various levels of specific vocational
preparation:
Level Time
1 Short demonstration only
2 Anything beyond short demonstration up to and including 1 month
3 Over 1 month up to and including 3 months
4 Over 3 months up to and including 6 months
5 Over 6 months up to and including 1 year
6 Over 1 year up to and including 2 years
7 Over 2 years up to and including 4 years
8 Over 4 years up to and including 10 years
9 Over 10 years
Note: The levels of this scale are mutually exclusive and do not overlap.
Click to expand...
maverick13 - thanks a lot for the clarification. I will take this to my lawyer, and see what she thinks.
BTW - have you gotten a PWD yet? If so, what position did they classify you as? And what wage level?
 
wildscenebob said:
maverick13 - thanks a lot for the clarification. I will take this to my lawyer, and see what she thinks.
BTW - have you gotten a PWD yet? If so, what position did they classify you as? And what wage level?
Click to expand...


Exactly 5 weeks completed since submission, no replies from CA SWA yet. How about you and others?
 
helpwithGC said:
So we could show that the Job need BS + 2/ MS as the requirement ( which could be in Job Zone 4 w/out business necessity, as SVP of just 4) and have it under EB2????
Does that sound right?
Click to expand...

It is not right. If you require MS+0 yrs exp (SVP will be 4 in this case) for a job in jobzone 4, it will be considerd the "requirements not normal" . However, if it requires BS+2 (SVP 4)years it will be a normal requirement in job zone 4.
 
perm_lc said:
It is not right. If you require MS+0 yrs exp (SVP will be 4 in this case) for a job in jobzone 4, it will be considerd the "requirements not normal" . However, if it requires BS+2 (SVP 4)years it will be a normal requirement in job zone 4.
Click to expand...


Job Zone 4 could have SVP till 7 right? So why SVP 4 is "requirements not normal" could you please explain?
 
helpwithGC said:
Job Zone 4 could have SVP till 7 right? So why SVP 4 is "requirements not normal" could you please explain?
Click to expand...

As far as SVP requirements both MS+0 or BS+2 will be the same, ie 4 years preperation time. It exactly comply SVP 7. However, job zone 4 are classified with Bachlors degree as the normal educational requirment. If you ask MS for a job that requires BS as minimum requiremets it will be consdered as not normal.

In a simple terms, the requirement should not exceed both SVP and minimum education in the each job zone. If your job in job zone 5 then MS requirement may be normal.
 
xg121960 said:
Here is a PERM interpretation. Job Zone dictates only the experience required for the job but not the minimum education. While Education and Training Category Code (ETCC) decides what will be the minimum education requirement for your job title.
Click to expand...


I think you are partly mistaken about the job zone part. SVP (and hence the job zone) does take education (degree) into consideration, not just work experience. Crosscheck with your lawyer.
 
maverick13 said:
I think you are partly mistaken about the job zone part. SVP (and hence the job zone) does take education (degree) into consideration, not just work experience. Crosscheck with your lawyer.
Click to expand...
XG was right. Though education will be cosidered in SVP calculation, the amount of education should not exceed the minimum requirement of EDUCATION, specified in each job zone.

Do not attest yes to the question "is the requirement normal for the occupation?" even if you ask MS+0 yrs exp if your position comes in job zone 4 with BS as a minimum requirement. DOL clearly told in their FAQ, if employer not correctly attested to this qustion, application will be denied, whether you have a proof for "bussiness necessity".

I am not a lawyer. Though, I have studied the PERM regulation and O*NET clearly. Discuss with own lawyers.
 
xg121960 said:
SVP does include both education and experience. However, it is not SVP decide what will the minimum education for each job title, ETCC does.
Click to expand...

Sorry for the confusion, I just wanted to specify that SVP does take education into account also. That being said yes business necessity WILL BE needed for any of the foll 2 cases:

1) Requirements exceed SVP (job zone)
2) Requirements exceed education and training code cateogy
 
Interesting discussion folks! Thanks a lot for sharing your knowledge gained through research and experience. Have a question for you.

Which job zone a Software Engineer (working on UI) with MS + 5 years of experience would fall into, considering that the job requirement also states the same? Is there any way to project this requirement as EB2?

Thanks in Advance!
 
What abt ETCC 3?

I understand that a Job with ETCC 5 cannot be filed under EB2. What about ETCC 3. Note the following O'Net Job:

Title : Operations Research Analyst
Job Zone: 4
ETCC: 3 Masters Degree Required
SVP: 7 to 8

I have an MS degree with 5 yrs. exp about to take a new job that will be filed under Op. Research Analyst. Can I file as EB2?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top