PERM for serious
- Thread starter Hexamon
- Start date
I am assiting my comp. attorney to go for PERM on march-28, we plan to file for at least 5 employees in april. Currently I am looking for a way to file EB2 for software pros. I have figured out a way for embedded software engineers but still searching a way out for other. Any ideas?? One clear gotcha is the SVP rating in O*net which is less than 8 for most software jobs, so these jobs have to be filed under EB3.Hexamon said:
hipka,
Thanks for your reply. If I may, there are couple questions in my mind:
1. What it the recruitement time? 30 days?
2. Are there 3 different recruitement types involved?
3. Could a recruitement, done previousely for RIR (within 6 months) used?
4. "One clear gotcha is the SVP rating in O*net which is less than 8 for most software jobs, so these jobs have to be filed under EB3."
<- could you explain: SVP (Senior VP?) and O*net (mean, .net?)
thanks,
Thanks for your reply. If I may, there are couple questions in my mind:
1. What it the recruitement time? 30 days?
2. Are there 3 different recruitement types involved?
3. Could a recruitement, done previousely for RIR (within 6 months) used?
4. "One clear gotcha is the SVP rating in O*net which is less than 8 for most software jobs, so these jobs have to be filed under EB3."
<- could you explain: SVP (Senior VP?) and O*net (mean, .net?)
thanks,
Hexamon said:
I see that you are new to labor certification, please read the PERM section on this website, or go to murthy.com and read the requirements for PERM --Read details of the recruitment efforts below:
Recruitment Efforts
1) Recruitment for labor certifications that do not include special handling, Schedule A occupations, or sheepherders must submit a job order to the SWA in the area of intended employment for 30 days. Special handling, Schedule A occupations, and sheepherders will be addressed in a separate article on MurthyDotCom at a later date. The employer must also run two Sunday advertisements in a newspaper of general circulation most appropriate to the occupation in the area of intended employment. If the job opportunity is located in a rural (not suburban) area that does not have a Sunday newspaper, the employer may use the edition with the widest circulation in the area of intended employment. If the job application requires experience and an advanced degree, the employer may substitute one Sunday ad for a professional journal ad, if the job would normally be advertised in a journal. These two steps must be completed at least 30 days prior to filing the labor certification, but no more than 180 days prior to filing the labor certification.
2) Yes different types of recruitment are needed for professional positions:
Recruitment for Professional Positions
If an employer is hiring someone for a DOL-designated professional occupation, the employer must also complete at least 3 of the 10 following recruitment efforts: recruitment at job fairs; recruitment on the employer's website; job search website other than the employer's site; on-campus recruiting; use of trade or professional organizations for recruitment; use of private employment firms; employee referral program with incentives; use of campus placement offices; use of local and ethnic newspapers; or use of radio and television advertisements. Only one of these efforts may be conducted solely within 30 days of filing the labor certification application. None may take place more than 180 days prior to filing the application. The DOL is maintaining a list of professional occupations, which were not included in the regulation. Professional occupations are those that typically require a bachelor's degree. Even if the employer is not requiring a bachelor's degree for the position, the professional recruitment must occur if the occupation is on the list. Examples of occupations on the current professional occupations list include: computer and information scientists, research; computer and information systems managers; accountants; computer programmers; computers software engineers; computer systems analysts; database administrators; network and computer system administrators; computer security specialists; network systems and data communication analysts; biomedical engineers; computer hardware engineers; electrical engineers; occupational therapists; sales engineers; and lawyers.
As with the non-PERM process, the foreign national and any attorney representing the employer or attorney is not permitted to conduct the interviewing or participate in the consideration process for U.S. workers applying for the offered position. The employer's representative who interviews or considers U.S. workers must be the person who normally interviews or considers applicants for the same or similar job opportunities with the employer for all positions, rather than solely for positions that are the subject of a labor certification. If the foreign national owns a part of the employer's business, is related to the employer, or if the employer is one of a small number of employees, the employer must be able to document that there is a bona fide job opportunity available to all U.S. workers.
A U.S. worker is considered able and qualified for the job if the worker can acquire the skills necessary to perform the duties involved in the occupation during a reasonable period of on-the-job training. Such period is not defined, as the DOL feels that the period will vary by occupation and other factors.
3) Yes but it must confirm to PERM guidelines
4) Read definition of SVP:
Job Duties
It is still possible to use business necessity to justify certain job requirements. However, generally, job requirements should be those normally required for the occupation and must not exceed the Specific Vocational Preparation (SVP) level assigned to the occupation, as shown in the O*Net Job Zones
This is where PERM screwed up, all software pro. jobs have been given an SVP less than 8 making it difficult for EB2 professionals. Any ideas?
I'm not that new to LC (longer, than I'd want to 
). Though granted, I've not been following PERM closely.
You give good answers. Well related to PERM guidlines. Thanks.
For #4: this is problematic for EB2 category. I honestly don't think software engineers, other than with some extraordinary skills (tough to justify), are intentionally destined for EB3.
). Though granted, I've not been following PERM closely.You give good answers. Well related to PERM guidlines. Thanks.
For #4: this is problematic for EB2 category. I honestly don't think software engineers, other than with some extraordinary skills (tough to justify), are intentionally destined for EB3.
I am racking my brains on how to get through with EB2. I believe that it is possible for software occupations which have some hardware interaction involved. Most of the lawyers don't understand the technical details so next time you talk to a lawyer, remind him that many software engineers are also electronic engineers and they can get EB2 for electronic engineers. In the meantime if you hear anything please share. ThanksHexamon said:I'm not that new to LC (longer, than I'd want to
You give good answers. Well related to PERM guidlines. Thanks.
For #4: this is problematic for EB2 category. I honestly don't think software engineers, other than with some extraordinary skills (tough to justify), are intentionally destined for EB3.
Hi Guys,
My application is pending though RIR and I have no intension to change to PERM, but my Lawyer is preparing to file my wife's application throgh PERM on March 28th. Any advice will be greatly appreciated.
My wife has Master's in Commerce from India and worked as a Administrative Manager for 3 years. She completed a Licensure in Elementary Program from a University in US, appeared and cleared the praxis exams and then received a Licence to Teacher Elementary school. She started working for a Public school from Oct 1st 2004 - the school sponcered her H1. The school is in a remote area and have a hard time finding teachers, they have quite a few teachers on H1 and J1. The school system has approximately 1200 employees.
We placed 4 Sunday Ad's - 1each month, the job has been advertised on the Public school web site and was also placed on the School Bulliten board for 1 month. So far 2 people applied and were rejected as they did not have a Bachelor's degree.
My wife had only 6months of Voluntary Teaching experience prior to taking this job, but the job does not require any experience.
The Ad that was placed in the paper was simple "Required 3rd grade Teacher".
Do we need to do anything else. More hiring effort, etc - please let me know.
My Lawyer is also looking and trying to find if anything else is required to be done before applying.
Appreciate your response.
Thanks
My application is pending though RIR and I have no intension to change to PERM, but my Lawyer is preparing to file my wife's application throgh PERM on March 28th. Any advice will be greatly appreciated.
My wife has Master's in Commerce from India and worked as a Administrative Manager for 3 years. She completed a Licensure in Elementary Program from a University in US, appeared and cleared the praxis exams and then received a Licence to Teacher Elementary school. She started working for a Public school from Oct 1st 2004 - the school sponcered her H1. The school is in a remote area and have a hard time finding teachers, they have quite a few teachers on H1 and J1. The school system has approximately 1200 employees.
We placed 4 Sunday Ad's - 1each month, the job has been advertised on the Public school web site and was also placed on the School Bulliten board for 1 month. So far 2 people applied and were rejected as they did not have a Bachelor's degree.
My wife had only 6months of Voluntary Teaching experience prior to taking this job, but the job does not require any experience.
The Ad that was placed in the paper was simple "Required 3rd grade Teacher".
Do we need to do anything else. More hiring effort, etc - please let me know.
My Lawyer is also looking and trying to find if anything else is required to be done before applying.
Appreciate your response.
Thanks
hipka said:
Did you study the PREM regulation where they have listed several Job Titles with their Education & Training Category Code (pg 118 onwards)? When I compared that with O*net I found some discrepancies.
e.g
O*NET-SOC code "19-3021.00" for "Market Research Analyst" is listed under Education & Training Category Code 3 in PERM regulation which requires Master's Degree. Wile on the O*net site it is shown under Job Zone 4 requiring Bachelor's Degree and SVP of 7 to 8.
Similarly O*NET-SOC code "41-9031.00" for "Sales Engineer" is listed under Education & Training Category Code 5 in PERM regulation which requires only Bachelor's Degree and no experience. Wile on the O*net site it is shown under Job Zone 5 requiring Bachelor's, Master's or PhD Degree and SVP of 8 or more.
Which one is correct? Do you have any idea? There might be discrepancies in other titles as well.
I have Bachelor’s Degree in Electronics/ Telecom with 15 years experience. Since most of my experience is in IT Sales & Business Development I am exploring ways to file under EB2. Let me know if you have any suggestions.
My take is that the O*NET ratings will be used. In the discussion about PERM DOL has clearly stated that it does not intend to make any rules about SVP and a business necessity clause can be used when justified(see below). In your case ,experience seems to justify some managerial duties, many of which have an SVP of 8. Right now your best bet is to look at management positions in IT. However these could change by march 28, so lets see what happens.APD said:
COMMENTARY ON SVP
With respect to the commenter's concern that the proposed rule does
not allow an employer to use job requirements that exceed the SVP level
assigned to the occupation, this final rule reinstates a business
necessity test for job requirements that exceed the SVP level assigned
to the occupation. See our discussion of business necessity below.
Revision of the SVP is beyond the scope of this rulemaking.
ETA plans to utilize the guidance provided in the administrative
directive Field Memorandum No. 48-94, issued May 16, 1994, Subject:
Policy Guidance on Labor Certification Issues (FM). In summary, the FM
provided that a general associate's degree is equivalent to 0 years
SVP, a specific associate's degree is equivalent to 2 years; a
bachelor's degree is equivalent to 2 years; a master's degree is
equivalent to 4 (2 + 2) years; and, a doctorate is 7 (2 + 2 + 3) years.
In administering this final rule, the Dictionary of Occupational
Titles (DOT) will no longer be consulted to determine whether the
training and experience requirements are normal; O*NET will be used
instead. It should be noted, however, the job opportunity's job
requirements, unless adequately arising from business necessity, must
be those normally required for the occupation and must not exceed the
Specific Vocational Preparation assigned to the occupation as shown in
the O*Net Job Zones. More information about O*NET, including the O*NET
job zones can be found at http://online.onetcenter.org/.
Hexamon said:
Historically prioirty dates retrogress only for India, China, Phillipines and Maxico. Imigrataion aspirants from other countries are generally not affected because the number of applications are always less than the number of Visas available. Pls not that every country is allocated same numbers of maximum Visas irrespective of size of the country and number of immigration aspirants.
So you are lucky if you are not from India, China, Phillipines or Maxico.
Couple of questions surfaced in regards to go/nogo for PERM. It's obvious that for the people filing new LC-s, PERM is a definite go. As for the ones patiently waiting in various states, PERM is so darn attractive, but... is it worse of going through the same nightmare with papers, AD campaigns, HR staff, etc.? (in many cases, additional monetary resources too).
So, here's a brief to what it will take to file for PERM:
1) Two newspaper ads.
2) Job order with IDES for 30 days.
3) Posting for ten days in appropriate location.
4) The newspapers also post the job ads on a website, so that will serve as a third-party website posting.
5) Posting on the company’s website.
6) A 10 second radio ad or another ad in another local newspaper
Now, I've filed for LC-s twice, I can understand the frustration coming from my boss and the head of HR, if I'd approach them with yet another request to start the process.
Two key questions pop up at this point:
a) Is there any reasonable expectation to how long a case transferred to BEC (TX BEC, filed in May 2002) would take?
b) Would it be possible to file the PERM application without withdrawing the prior case? (assuming the prior case has not even been open)
So, here's a brief to what it will take to file for PERM:
1) Two newspaper ads.
2) Job order with IDES for 30 days.
3) Posting for ten days in appropriate location.
4) The newspapers also post the job ads on a website, so that will serve as a third-party website posting.
5) Posting on the company’s website.
6) A 10 second radio ad or another ad in another local newspaper
Now, I've filed for LC-s twice, I can understand the frustration coming from my boss and the head of HR, if I'd approach them with yet another request to start the process.
Two key questions pop up at this point:
a) Is there any reasonable expectation to how long a case transferred to BEC (TX BEC, filed in May 2002) would take?
b) Would it be possible to file the PERM application without withdrawing the prior case? (assuming the prior case has not even been open)
a. According to some number crunching that I have done, it should be less than 3-4 months for you from the time the BEC's start approving petitions.
Assumptions:
1. There will be just one queue: Regular, RIR and petitions pending at the regional level.
2. Priority will be based on PD for RIR and Regular Apps and received date for applications pending at the regional level.
b. Gray area - if the position is the same for the same company, then there is speculation that the employer may be asked to choose between the two petitions. If that is the case, then refiling defeats the purpose of preserving the PD to begin with.
Assumptions:
1. There will be just one queue: Regular, RIR and petitions pending at the regional level.
2. Priority will be based on PD for RIR and Regular Apps and received date for applications pending at the regional level.
b. Gray area - if the position is the same for the same company, then there is speculation that the employer may be asked to choose between the two petitions. If that is the case, then refiling defeats the purpose of preserving the PD to begin with.
perm with EB2
Hi Guys,
Can u plz advice my situation to go for Perm under EB2. My PD is Jan'04 and went Dallas BEC and No 45 days letter till now. Am on 7th year extension.
Now my employer wanted to file a fresh new Labor Under EB2 with new regulations PERM.
1. Can I go ahead with EB2 perm? Or wait with old application.
2. If I goahead with Perm, Is it EB3 better or EB2? My quallifications are Masters and more than 5 years of experience.
Highly appreciate your response.
Best Regards,
Hi Guys,
Can u plz advice my situation to go for Perm under EB2. My PD is Jan'04 and went Dallas BEC and No 45 days letter till now. Am on 7th year extension.
Now my employer wanted to file a fresh new Labor Under EB2 with new regulations PERM.
1. Can I go ahead with EB2 perm? Or wait with old application.
2. If I goahead with Perm, Is it EB3 better or EB2? My quallifications are Masters and more than 5 years of experience.
Highly appreciate your response.
Best Regards,