PERM denied, please help!!!

gmmiracles

New Member
Hello,

My PERM was filed on 11/28/05 and it was denied due to the following:

1. Per 656.17(i), the alien beneficiary must meet the minimum requirements necessary to perform the job. The alien's qualifications listed in Section J of ETA Form 9089 do not meet these requirements. Therefore the application is denied.

2. The application indicates the advertisements used for the recruitment effort did not occur within the allowable time (at least 30 days, but not more than 180 days from the date the application was filed) Therefore the application was denied.

My lawyer thinks that reason 1 is easy to fix.
He appealed on reason 2. They filed within 180 working days and it seems the DOL is taking 180 calendar days.

Any ideas? Was the appeal a good decision?

Does the refilling process means that the ads need to be published again?

I will appreciate any advice on this matter.

Thanks.
 
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gmmiracles said:
Hello,

My PERM was filed on 11/28/05 and it was denied due to the following:

1. Per 656.17(i), the alien beneficiary must meet the minimum requirements necessary to perform the job. The alien's qualifications listed in Section J of ETA Form 9089 do not meet these requirements. Therefore the application is denied.

2. The application indicates the advertisements used for the recruitment effort did not occur within the allowable time (at least 30 days, but not more than 180 days from the date the application was filed) Therefore the application was denied.

My lawyer thinks that reason 1 is easy to fix.
He appealed on reason 2. They filed within 180 working days and it seems the DOL is taking 180 calendar days.

Any ideas? Was the appeal a good decision?

Does the refilling process means that the ads need to be published again?

I will appreciate any advice on this matter.

Thanks.

I never heard about working days. Everything is calendar days.
If your lawyer said working days, it could imply the ad must run for 30 working days (6 weeks) and quite period for 30 working days (6weeks). Lol the total will be min 3 months for PERM preparation ? How funny he is.

To refill, you must do ad again (of course).
 
problem 1

your lawyer is thinking wrong on the first problem, i got the same reason, got denied on ur first reason, my lawyer was also thinking that it is easy to fix this problem, refiled again after fixing the first problem, got denied again, i consulted with an expert person regarding this issue, he said you would have to fix the problem in where it is asked that does the job requirements are normal to the occupation, there we should say no, but in my case my lawyer said yes,, gat me
let me know what ur lawyer says ab it how he is gona fix this first issue
 
denial?

syed2 - thanks for your input.. after how long a gap did you see that a denial was issued again?... as in how long does the USCIS/DOL take to look at an appeal?.
 
appeals

Im sorry to say that PERM appeals are simply non-existent there is no system in place to deal with them yet.

Reason 1 is not easy to fix at all thats a serious issue and I dont know why your lawyer didnt figure it was that important.

Reason 2 is interesting, one advert can be within 30 days of filing but did your laywer real think it was 180 working days!!! Working days are only used once in the PERM process: in the posting notice, and then you dont need to put the dates online. I agree with newbies on this!!

basically the appeal is a waste of time, do the ads again (properly) and refile.
 
no appeal system?

hi,

I found out the following about the appeal system. Is this sill valid?:

http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache...enial+appeal+process&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=4

D. Appeals and Review

PERM introduces some new procedures to this part of the process. The Chief, Division of Labor Certifications, is the National Certifying Officer. The Chief and the COs at the application processing centers (rather than regional offices) have the power to grant or deny labor certification applications. In making the decision, as he/she does under current law, the CO will consider whether there is a US worker who is willing, able, qualified and available for the position. PERM considers the US worker to be able and qualified if he/she can acquire the skills necessary to perform the job during a reasonable period of on-the- job training.

The CO will no longer issue a Notice of Findings – the labor certification application will be granted or denied. Requests for review or reconsideration of a denied labor certification application must be filed within 30 days of the date of the denial. No new evidence will be considered as part of this review or reconsideration.

If the CO determines that the employer made a material misrepresentation regarding the application, failed to produce supporting documentation or produced inadequate documentation, the employer may be required to conduct supervised recruitment in labor certification applications for up to 2 years. This provision is new to PERM.

An approved labor certification can be invalidated by the DHS or the Department of State upon a determination of fraud or willful representation of a material fact regarding the labor certification. If the possible fraud or willful misrepresentation is discovered before the final determination, the case is referred to the DHS for investigation with a copy to the DOL Office of Inspector General. If 90 days passes without criminal indictment or notice of an investigation, the CO may continue to process the application.

A labor certification can be revoked by the CO if it finds the labor certification was “not justified.” This means that it can be revoked for any reason that would have resulted in denial of the application for permanent employment certification. A notice of intent to revoke is sent out, containing a detailed statement of the grounds and the 30 day time period for rebuttal by the employer.

As under current law, the Board of Alien Labor Certification Appeals (BALCA) will have jurisdiction over appeals of the denial of a labor certification. It will also have jurisdiction over appeals of the revocation of certifications and of decisions regarding prevailing wage determinations issued by the CO. Only an employer can now appeal a decision to BALCA. BALCA will no longer remand the decision to the CO for further consideration or fact-finding and decision; it will affirm the decision below or direct the CO to grant the certification, overrule the revocation or overrule the prevailing wage determination. BALCA can also direct that a factual hearing be held. A request for BALCA review of a denial or revocation of certification must be filed within 30 days of the date of the determination.

As we review and analyze the regulation we will continue to keep you posted.
 
just in 4 days, filed back again 24jan got denied 27jan -06, after a denial one should wait for 30 days its better for faster reconcideration, i came to know one more thing that this time in section H when i changed the a question that (the alein has the required training for the job ) to yes then the first issue was gone, this time i got only one reason for denial that it says with the swa job order the recruitment was not made for 30 days period, i blv this is a mistake cuz it was done
 
appeals

GMMiracles and others... did anyone file an appeal.. How long did USCIS take to get back?.. what was the end result like?.. Please let us all know..

thanks,
 
My case is denied today. Don't know the exact reason yet but my lawyer and employer mentioned they decided that it is "Kellogg case". Don't know what that means. They are waiting for official notification. anybody have a clue what this means? My company is a reputed US publicly traded company still they found my case is not valid.

I've been working with the same company the day 1 i entered in US and worked as a contractor for an year and then went to work for them as employee. My H1 6 yrs expire in June. Any ideas what can i do.

1) Refiling: Not much can be different from previous case as i've my entire experience is with that company and they may consider all this experience again as on the Job training.

2) Appeal: Not much there as they don't even have a system in place to deal with.

i appreciate any response. Thanx

- Anil
 
How many days should one wait to re-file a new PERM application after denial assuming recruitment is still valid (not older than 180 days)?
 
Rule # "20 CFR 656.17(h)(4)(ii)" I think mine is alternate experience

Thanks unitednations. I found more information from you than looking around.My case is filed as EB3 not under EB2. So, will this make any difference? Only 2 yrs., and bachelors as experienced provided.

H. Job Oppurtunity Information
4. Minimum Level of education required
Bachelors
4B. Major Field of Study: Computer Science.
5. Is Training Required for the Job Oppurtunity : NO
6. Is experience in the job offered required for the job. : YES
6a. Number of months : 24
7. Is there an alternate field of study required for the job.: YES
7a: Specify the major field of study: Engineering.
8. Is there an alternate combination of education and experience that is acceptable: NO


Don't see any where we've made the mistake. I appreciate any help.

- Anil
 
can refile be done without having to go through 30 days process? or do i have to go through same process again?

If i change and add special requirement don't we need to change the ads to show that? what will happen to my priority date and 7th year extension. sorry too many questions.
 
sbanil said:
can refile be done without having to go through 30 days process? or do i have to go through same process again?

If i change and add special requirement don't we need to change the ads to show that? what will happen to my priority date and 7th year extension. sorry too many questions.

If you redo AD, you must go through 30 days Ad and 30 days quiet.
If you plan to keep the same AD and just change your PERM application (Assume the AD is within 6 months), you can refile today.

Your PD will be the date of refile :)

DO NOT ADD ANYTHING TO THE APPLICATION WHICH ARE NOT IN THE AD :) AUDIT COMES YOU WILL COMMITE FRAUD (BIG CONSEQUENCE FOR FRAUD CASE)
 
"Designs/architects, develops and modifies insurance systems software products and common components for the property & casualty industry. BS in computer science, engineering or related field, plus 2 years experience in programming applications, documentation of design and maintenance. Experience to include JAVA, J2EE, J2EE Application server, IBM RAD tools, RDMS. Travel required."

Does it give any indication that any combination of education,experience or training can be considered? It looks to me that their intent is to hire anybody with experience in programming and in the engineering related field.

My file was pending at DOL for 9 months, so it means i cannot refile???? So then appeal is the only option isn't it?


This is the last question and i'll shutup forever.

newbies said:
If you redo AD, you must go through 30 days Ad and 30 days quiet.
If you plan to keep the same AD and just change your PERM application (Assume the AD is within 6 months), you can refile today.

Your PD will be the date of refile :)

DO NOT ADD ANYTHING TO THE APPLICATION WHICH ARE NOT IN THE AD :) AUDIT COMES YOU WILL COMMITE FRAUD (BIG CONSEQUENCE FOR FRAUD CASE)
 
Thanks everyone who replied. I'm planning to appeal the decision and atleast get 7th year extension while it is pending. Hope that is ok.


- Anil Sanghu
 
Read this article about Kellog Case.

Allowing Alternative Experience Requirements: How PERM Adopted The Kellogg Standard
by Elizabeth T. Reichard

In the real world, when an employer hires someone, it reviews the candidate’s experience, education and skills set as a whole in order to determine whether the candidate has the qualifications to perform the job duties. Employers often hire individuals who do not meet the “standard job requirements” so long as they obtained the necessary skills through an alternative route of education and experience. This real world of hiring employees is more flexible than one in which employers hire alien employees. In that sphere, employers are restricted in what alternative experience they can consider. While they can take alternative experience into consideration, they must do so in a manner that is not so restrictive as to prevent a U.S. worker from qualifying for the job. This article examines the prior and current practices of the Department of Labor with regard to considering alternative experience qualifications in the labor certification process.

I. Background

Under both PERM and the old labor certification program, any job requirements outlined in a labor certification application must be the actual minimum requirements for the job.1 A worker cannot be hired if he/she has less training or experience than the stated minimum requirements.The requirements must be those normally required for the job and can neither be tailored to the alien, nor exceed those allowed by Specific Vocational Preparation level assigned to the occupation.2

The DOL – with some limitations – has adopted the real world practice which allows employers to consider experience different from that which is typically required for the job. Such “alternative experience” must be described in the Labor Certification Application and must adhere to the general rules described above. Although the DOL has permitted employers to consider alternative experience, it has qualified the rule so as to prohibit employers from tailoring job requirements in a way that enables an otherwise unqualified applicant qualified for the position.

II. Kellogg Standard

Prior to PERM, the doctrine permitting alternative experience was outlined by BALCA in Matter of Francis Kellogg.3 Kellogg involved an employer seeking to hire a live-in cook. The Labor Certification Application listed as the job requirements: “two years experience in the job offered or two years experience in the related occupation of live-in housekeeper with cooking experience.”4 The alternative requirement raised a red flag to the Certifying Officer because a live-in housekeeper with cooking experience had a lower Specific Vocational Preparation level than a live-in cook. This was problematic because the alien applicant in question did not have the primary requirements and only qualified for the job based on the lesser qualifications described.5 As such, it appeared as if the job requirements were tailored so that an unqualified alien would qualify for the job.

In response, BALCA held that an employer can include alternative requirements for a job; however, such “alternatives must be substantially equivalent” to the primary requirement so that the “applicant can perform in a reasonable manner the duties of the job being offered.”6 BALCA used the position of a computer programmer to illustrate this rule. The primary requirement for a computer programmer is a degree in computer science or mathematics. A legitimate alternative requirement for the position would be a certain number of years of programming experience.7 Both requirements are substantially equivalent because they provide the individual with the requisite skills to perform the duties of the job. BALCA then qualified the general rule and held that even if the alternative requirements are substantially equivalent, it will be presumed that they are “unlawfully tailored to the alien’s qualifications . . . unless the employer has [also] indicated that applicants with any suitable combination of education, training or experience are acceptable.”8 This qualification recognizes that there may also be other combinations of education, training or experience which could qualify other applicants top perform the job duties in a similar manner. It ultimately reflects the real world approach to the hiring employees.

III. PERM Standard

PERM retains the alternative experience doctrine established by BALCA in Kellogg.9 Specifically, it allows the employer to specify alternative requirements if they are “substantially equivalent” to the primary requirements.10 Further, if the alien is already working for the employer and the alien only qualifies for the job based on the alternative requirements, then the employer must indicate that it will accept applications from those with “any suitable combination of education, training or experience.”11

Practically, employers seeking to include alternative requirements for the job should pay special attention when completing Section H, Job Opportunity Information, of ETA Form 9089. Items 4 – 6 request information regarding the primary requirements for the job, specifically the minimum level of education, the field of study, the amount of training, the field of training, experience in the job offered, and the amount of experience in the job offered. Items 7 – 10 then permit the employer to specify the alternative requirements will be accepted for the position. For example, it asks if and what alternative field of study will be accepted. It asks if the employer will consider a combination of education and experience and if so what level of education, what type of education and how many years of experience will equate to the primary requirement. It also asks if the employer will accept a foreign educational equivalent. It finally asks if and what alternative occupation is acceptable.

Employers must keep in mind the Kellogg standard that was codified by PERM when completing this portion of Form 9089. For example, when checking “Yes” in Item 8 which asks if an alternate combination of education and experience is acceptable, the employer should be careful to describe the amount of education, the field of education and the years of experience required, making sure that they “substantially equivalent” to the primary requirements described in Items 4 – 6. If they bear little relevance or describe lesser qualifications, it is likely that the case will trigger an audit. Similarly, when answering Item 10, which asks about whether an alternative occupation is acceptable, the employer should carefully assess whether the skills obtained in this alternate occupation are “substantially equivalent” to those obtained from the job offered. In order to avoid difficulties in the case of an audit, it may be wise to include in the internal office file an analysis of how the requirements are “substantially equivalent.” Such an analysis should consider the similarity of the skills obtained and the duties involved.

Employers also need to be aware of the limited space on Form 9089. For example, Item 10-B allows the employer to indicate the job title of the acceptable alternate occupation. On the previous labor certification form, ETA-750A, there was sufficient space to describe a related occupation, not just indicate the title. On Form 9089, however, it only provides a small space and asks only for the title of the alternate occupation. In order to best describe the alternate occupation, however, it might be best to use that limited space to state the job title and qualify it with a brief list of duties. The space is limited, so it is important to be very deliberate when describing the skills.

IV. Conclusion

As described, with regard to alternative experience requirements for the job, PERM has adopted a real world solution that also protects the U.S. workforce. By adopting the Kellogg standard, it has codified an approach that recognizes that employers tend to look at applicants’ experience, education, and skills set as a whole when deciding whether they have the skills necessary to perform the job duties. At the same time, it protects U.S. workers because it prevents employers from abusing the labor certification process by carefully tailoring job requirements so that they specifically meet the qualifications of the alien employee.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Old 20 CFR 656.21(b)(5); 20 C.F.R. §656.17(h)(1), at 69 Fed. Reg. 77326, 77394 (Dec. 27, 2004).
2 Id.
3 Matter of Francis Kellogg, (94-INA-465, Feb. 2, 1998).
4 Id. at *2.
5 Id. at *4
6 Id.
7 Id.
8 Id.at *5
9 20 C.F.R. § 656.17(h)(4), at 69 Fed. Reg. 77326, 77394 (Dec. 27, 2004).
10 20 C.F.R. § 656.17(h)(4)(i), at 69 Fed. Reg. 77326, 77394 (Dec. 27, 2004).
11 20 C.F.R. § 656.17(h)(4)(ii), , at 69 Fed. Reg. 77326, 77394 (Dec. 27, 2004) (emphasis added).

Source: http://www.ilw.com/articles/2005,0428-reichard.shtm
 
unitednations,
Thanks a million for posting the I-140 denial noice. It makes thinks more clear.

Please consider the following example:
If the primary job requirement requirement is MS+0 with field of study A and alternative (secondary) job requirement accepts a Master's degree in fields of study B, C, D or any related field, then will the following answers be good for approval?


H-4. Min degree required?
Master's

H-4B Major field of study?
Field of Study A.

7. Is alternative field of study acceptable?
Yes

7-A. Alternate major field of study?
Fields of Study B, C, D or any related field.


Would it be a good idea to say "Field of Study A or academic equivalent" as answer for Question H-4B or will that cause any other problems?
 
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unitednations said:
In the primary field of study - match it with your field of study (that way you meet the primary requirement).

In secondary field of study put the (secondary). Problem is if you put Field of study A or academic equivalent in secondary; you will leave to USCIS a guessing game to determine if you have "equivalent". You need to make it idiot proof.

In the perm labors I do; the advertising we do is to leave field of study blank. We just state BS+5 or MS+1. When we file the perm labor as the primary field of study we just state "any field of study". In secondary we answer "no".

unitednations,
Thanks for the valuable response. Please correct me if I am wrong. Here is what I plan to have in order to avoid Kellog denial due to alternative requirements.

Alien beneficiary has MS+0 in Field of Study A.

H-4. Min degree required?
Master's

H-4B Major field of study?
Fields of Study A or B or C or D or any related field.

7. Is alternative field of study acceptable?
No

7-A. Alternate major field of study?
Not applicable.


Do you think this will work to avoid denial based on Kellog case?
 
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Hello unitednations,

If you put "any suitable combination of training, education, experience is acceptable". in the speial requirment box, do you must answer "yes" for qustion H.8 "is there an alternate combination of education and exp that is acceptable"? thanks

unitednations said:
The only thing I can see is that you have a major in Engineering and they think you meet alternate but not primary.

2 things that can be done:

Flip the major requirements and make engineering primary and computer science seconary.

or

re-file labor and in "special requirements" box put: "any suitable combination of training, education, experience is acceptable".

Either one of these things will get your perm labor approved.
 
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