Oh, SHIT!!!

These kinds of proposals keep popping up in Congress, proposed by ultra-conservatives right-wingers. Because of the democratic political process in the US, they have to be debated. Because the number of ultra-conservatives is not a majority, these bills get defeated, as most Senators and Congressmen know that this proposal is not actually a solution to the problem. I am confident this will be defeated, too.
 
Y'know, you don't need to explain the democratic process to me - I wasn't born yesterday, and I am not fresh off the boat, either. The reason I posted it is that Zhang et al think it has a chance of passing the House. Might get killed in Senate, or vetoed by the Prez (if he got a shred of principles, that is), though...

...Then again, let it pass. When it really bites Joe Sixpack in the ass (and it will, with the employment verification provision - hope it'll be as efficient as the FBI namecheck), maybe they'll wake up and start paying attention. Truth is, most of the members of this board have options. Joe Sixpack doesn't. In the words of a famous piece of foreign scum: "You asked for it, brother!"

Shrek
 
I'm not trying to belittle you. That's entirely your own conclusion. I was merely just trying to logically reason through how these kinds of proposals, however idiotic they may be, can end up on the floor for debate. I'm more thinking out loud than anything else.
 
Still a long way to go before becoming law. Also, how the heck do they think they will be able to enforce all of this. I'm trying to imagine how the feds will try to deport over 10 million undocumented workers (first having o find them and then having to physically send them on their way). If they cannot even keep the borders relatively secure, how will they find resources for all these measures? I don't think they realize that it's one thing to pass a bill and a completely different thing to actually enforce it.
 
bjorn said:
Still a long way to go before becoming law.
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Sure, but those people have a good track record of ramrodding laws that screw everyone over - in a hurry

bjorn said:
Also, how the heck do they think they will be able to enforce all of this.
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Have you read the damn thing? You can be busted just for _associating_ with an "illegal alien". Theoretically, if one person on this board is illegal under the bill's definition, everybody's sorry ass here is guilty (yeah, I am stretching, but not a lot). You think they'll enforce it? No, but they can use it to "saddamize" (to saddamize, v., to mete a disproportionate punishment for a minor technical violation, after what happened to some Saddam Hussain's kinda-relative - you've heard this word here first) anyone they feel like saddamizing.

Also, seems like the law will shut down immigration law practice altogether - if you don't rat your client out, you're in trouble. AILA really needs to be paying attention

bjorn said:
I'm trying to imagine how the feds will try to deport over 10 million undocumented workers (first having o find them and then having to physically send them on their way).
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Social security verification system, AUTHORIZED BY THIS VERY SAME BILL. Not that *I* am concerned on this front - my ass is clean, but, last I checked, it was a free country, and damn it, if I need a permission from the Feds (which they can deny just because some low level munchkin lost paperwork, or because some bureacrat is in the lousy mood today, or because he doesn't like my clearly non-WASP name, or just through gross inefficiency and incompetence we all came to know and love here) every time I feel like changing jobs _even with a green card in hand_, is it worth it? Mind you, I don't think Bolsheviks went as far (OK, they might have - but this country is supposed to be different, no?).
 
A couple of things. First, I really don't believe this is the version that will eventually make it to the President for signing. The Senate version is different, so they have to come to agreements on lots of issues, so I think osme of this will be toned down. Second, the clause about associating with an illegal immigrant makes the presumption that one actualy knows that one is associating with an illegal immigrant. That literally means that a store clerk who sells milk to an illegal immigrant on a regular basis is subject to arrest. Obviously, that would make is a heck of a lot of arrests of people who actually have no clue that they are indeed associating with an illegal. I am actually not too concerned about this as, 1) this will not be the fincal vesion signed into law. It will change quite a bit., and 2) millions of people smoke pot and speed each day, but they are never busted simply because there is not enough inteligence and resources to track and arrest every person smoking pot and not enough state troopers on the roards to catch all people speeding. Many proposals in this bill, if becoming law as is, will become a law enforcement nightmare, and as a result it will just not be enforced at all, but merely a piece of legislation on paper.
 
bjorn said:
A couple of things. First, I really don't believe this is the version that will eventually make it to the President for signing.
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I kinda count on the fact it won't - else, Canada starts looking more and more attractive. But if it DOES make it to the Prez, that'll be too late, dontcha think?

bjorn said:
Second, the clause about associating with an illegal immigrant makes the presumption that one actualy knows that one is associating with an illegal immigrant. That literally means that a store clerk who sells milk to an illegal immigrant on a regular basis is subject to arrest.
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My point, exactly. I deal with some 100 students daily. A good half of them have accents. Did I check their papers? No. It's not my job. In practice, if someone's F-1 lapsed for some reason, that's illegal presense under the proposed bill, and my ass goes off to jail.

bjorn said:
Obviously, that would make is a heck of a lot of arrests of people who actually have no clue that they are indeed associating with an illegal. I am actually not too concerned about this as, 1) this will not be the fincal vesion signed into law. It will change quite a bit., and 2) millions of people smoke pot and speed each day, but they are never busted simply because there is not enough inteligence and resources to track and arrest every person smoking pot and not enough state troopers on the roards to catch all people speeding. Many proposals in this bill, if becoming law as is, will become a law enforcement nightmare, and as a result it will just not be enforced at all, but merely a piece of legislation on paper.
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You obviously never heard of selective enforcement. Sure, lotsa people smoke pot, and only a few get busted, _but this is exactly the trouble with pot laws_: on one hand, they erode the rule of the law, on the other, they give a tool to deal with "undesirables" - like those dirty brown people moving into the neighbourhood, stealing jobs that by right belong to white cracker boys (then again, from your handle I reckon you can't really relate to that). You think the federals are above that? Think again: google up Operation Meth Merchant or use my biased link here: http://talkleft.com/new_archives/011739.html

Then again, pot laws have one advantage: there is an easy way to avoid prosecution - don't smoke pot (not a perfect defense, but generally works). In other words, you need a voluntary action on your part to be found guilty (again, not always true). Under this piece of abomination - no, you can be busted just in a situation I described above.

And, last, but not least, it's that "it is a free country" bit: I am sorry, but being guilty (in the legal sense) of association with someone considered undesirable has not been seen in the civilized world since Russia under Stalin and Germany 1933-1989 (Eastern Germany when Stasi was in full bloom, that is). You should be familiar with this line of thinking: "Crap, this Bjorn guy has an accent, I better rat him out, just in case he is illegal, so that my ass is covered".
 
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I really don't think it will go to that extreme as far as instances such as arresting people dealing with international students. If so, they would probably have to arrest every college professor in the country, as pretty much all college professors at all colleges at some point in their career deal with international students, so it's reasonable to believe that at some point every professor will teach a student who has visa problems, perhaps due to dropping a class and ending up with fewer classes than the requirement for international students.

Also, I just have a very hard time believing that Americans would start ratting people out left and right. That does not seem to be very American, at least not in my experience based on the Americans I have interacted with over the years. Also, who should they call if ratting someone out? The local PD is probably already overextended and will not follow up on the call, or will just file it for follow-up later, meaning never. Calling the FBI is a hassle, and most people are way to busy to bother doing that.

Also, there are such a large number of people in the US with a foreign accent that many people really don't even notice a foreign accent as unusual and would not even think about calling the authorities to check on the immigration status of that person. Some pockets of the US consist of a majority of people with Spanish accents who are here legally, for example Puerto Ricans in New York and Hispanics in the Southwest, so a foreign accent is the rule, not the exception. I am curious who would start calling the authorities on thos groups and how the authorities would respond. Citizens in Georgia (as reportd on CNN) have systematically called both the USCIS, border patrol, FBI, and their local PD to report illegal immigrants who locals definitely know are illegal. Both the border patrol and the local PD respnded that they just do not have the resources to deal with illegal immigration in Georgia, so they officially just let that slide, even stating that in front of the camera during a CNN immigration special a few months back.

I really don't worry too much about the US becoming a police state. Americans will not allow that.
 
bjorn said:
I really don't worry too much about the US becoming a police state. Americans will not allow that.
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Well, welcome to the New America. The America I have known for the last 8 years is dead...
 
sick_of_waiting said:
Well, welcome to the New America. The America I have known for the last 8 years is dead...
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Hi5 2 dat!!

I came to this country with a picture in mind and it had been for a long time. Along the way, it has changed seriously. Not the 'America' I used to know.

I do not beleive in any law the congress pass today (as it will be changed tomorrow with a lame excuse).

I am seriously thinking about filing for Canadian immigration.
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/index.html
The maximum I may have to wait is 18 months! As oppose to this so called 'green card' that I have waited for 13+ years, and who knows how long more I'll have to wait, and after that, who can say for sure they'll not come up with another lame law to reject all the pending 485s!!

Just waiting to see what comes next.
 
I think people are freaking out prematurely. Ultimately, it's illegal immigration Congress is trying to figure out how to deal with. The final version that the President will sign will not make much of a difference for legal immigrants. Conress fully understand hat the US is dependent on skilled immigrants who are here legally, and at some point that will be considered. I recently received a very encouraging letter back from a US Senator serving on the immigration committee and the direction the Senate wants this issue to go. The House and the Senate differ qute a bit on many immigration issues. The Senate also has to pass a bill, and then the joint committee need to iron out differences. lots of room for changes in a more positive direction. Let's keep that in mind.
 
I think you guys are unnecessarily blaming the law makers. Looks like most people expect law to change overnight.

Lot has been done past 5 years on the immigrantion front. Let me list those on the top of my mind.

1. Check application Status online.
2. Forms/Information/Processing dates etc available online.
3. There was NO customer service before. Before you lawyer was the only source of information.
4. You could not do H1 transfer before meaning, you could not work for new employer unless new H1 is approved.
5. H1 premium processing facility.
6. Increased H1 numbers to great levels before they brought it down.
7. Extension of H1 beyond 6 years. Previousely, you had to go back.
8. Some applications can be filed online now.
9. Labor Premium Processing
10. 485/140 Portability after 180 days.
11. Concurrent filing of 140/485.
12. Allowed quota of other countries to be used by India/China. That's why dates were current for almost 3 years.

If not for Sep11, life would have been better for lot of people. There are lot of negative things that can be said about current immigration state of affairs, but it is not as bad as it seems.

I am one of the victims of certain things, but had the law not changed, I would'nt have been able to stay for 9 years in US.
 
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well said. Most of us are on Legal route. Govt. is trying to stop illegal immigrants. And this won't effect us in any way.

I dont think they will revoke I-485's as sillious_mk said. They get major revenue from this stream which finances many of the immigration departments.

GreenCardVirus said:
I think you guys are unnecessarily blaming the law makers. Looks like most people expect law to change overnight.

Lot has been done past 5 years on the immigrantion front. Let me list those on the top of my mind.

1. Check application Status online.
2. Forms/Information/Processing dates etc available online.
3. There was NO customer service before. Before you lawyer was the only source of information.
4. You could not do H1 transfer before meaning, you could not work for new employer unless new H1 is approved.
5. H1 premium processing facility.
6. Increased H1 numbers to great levels before they brought it down.
7. Extension of H1 beyond 6 years. Previousely, you had to go back.
8. Some applications can be filed online now.
9. Labor Premium Processing
10. 485/140 Portability after 180 days.
11. Concurrent filing of 140/485.
12. Allowed quota of other countries to be used by India/China. That's why dates were current for almost 3 years.

If not for Sep11, life would have been better for lot of people. There are lot of negative things that can be said about current immigration state of affairs, but it is not as bad as it seems.

I am one of the victims of certain things, but had the law not changed, I would'nt have been able to stay for 9 years in US.
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It's kind of like the Patriot Act back in 2001. Everyone was freaking out about the US becoming a police state. Obviously that never happende, and this bill does certainly not have the same potential to infringe on civil liberties the same way as the Patriot Act actualy has. Now, however, very few people actually remember that the Patriot Act even exists on a day-to-day basis since it has no impact whasoever on the vast majority of the population. Same with this bill, immigrants who are here legally and follow the correct immigration procedures will see very little if any negative impact of this bill. Thanks jambalakadi1 for bringing up all the positive immigration developments over the last few years. We need to remind ourselves that things are actually getting better and that we are fortunate to have the opportunity to immigrate to the US in the first place.
 
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