N400 oath at the end

C

casolorz

Registered Users (C)
At the end of the N400 I see they show the Oath of Allegiance I will have to take. I have done a bit of research and I know I can at the ceremony replace the "so help me God" part with "on Oath" or something like that. My question is, do I have to somehow replace that on the application? the last thing I want is to get to the ceremony and they tell me the Oath has to be done exactly as it was on the application.

I really hope this doesn't spark a religious debate, that is not my intention, just need the answer to that simple question.

Thank you.
 
I think that the modified oath is only for those who do not want to take up arms.

There is no modified oath for atheist r other religious believer who don't believe in
Juda-Christian God. So you don't have to do anything on woirtten application.
 
natur08 said:
You can have your oath modified and the "so help me God" removed from it. The officially recorded oath is the one on the application, so that should be noted there. Having the oath modified because of objection to bearing arms is a different issue. See for example:

http://ffrf.org/faq/state-church/item/14023-immigration-oaths
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So are you saying that I have to modify it on the application? or I need to request a different application?
 
casolorz said:
So are you saying that I have to modify it on the application? or I need to request a different application?
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You should include a cover letter with the application asking to have the part removed. Then remind them again at the interview. You may get some push back (see the earlier link). They will strike out the words on the N-400 form. At the actual oath, you just do not say the words when everyone repeats the oath.
 
natur08 said:
You should include a cover letter with the application asking to have the part removed. Then remind them again at the interview. You may get some push back (see the earlier link). They will strike out the words on the N-400 form. At the actual oath, you just do not say the words when everyone repeats the oath.
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Great thanks, I've already written a letter to attach to the application and take to the interview in reference to question 36. Do you know if I should answer "no" on question 36? The questions says: "36. Are you willing to take the full Oath of Allegiance to the United States?"
 
casolorz said:
Great thanks, I've already written a letter to attach to the application and take to the interview in reference to question 36. Do you know if I should answer "no" on question 36? The questions says: "36. Are you willing to take the full Oath of Allegiance to the United States?"
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Usually this is to indicate the unwillingness to bear arms, but to be consistent, you can check No on question 36. Technically, it is sufficient to declare orally at the interview that you want to modify the oath, and there is no additional documentation required. Unfortunately, some interviewers are not always fully trained in this (or have their own agenda), so I would recommend bringing printouts of the rules and the relevant passages from the USCIS field manual.

See for example:

http://www.uscis.gov/policymanual/HTML/PolicyManual-Volume12-PartJ-Chapter3.html
http://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/...1261/0-0-0-32547/0-0-0-32553.html#0-0-0-20447

BTW, in the cover letter, I would only mention that you want the modified oath and that it would be in contradiction to your religious beliefs to take it. No further rationale is required (i.e., there is no need for a lengthy argument why you want the modified oath.)
 
natur08 said:
Usually this is to indicate the unwillingness to bear arms, but to be consistent, you can check No on question 36. Technically, it is sufficient to declare orally at the interview that you want to modify the oath, and there is no additional documentation required. Unfortunately, some interviewers are not always fully trained in this (or have their own agenda), so I would recommend bringing printouts of the rules and the relevant passages from the USCIS field manual.

See for example:

http://www.uscis.gov/policymanual/HTML/PolicyManual-Volume12-PartJ-Chapter3.html
http://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/...1261/0-0-0-32547/0-0-0-32553.html#0-0-0-20447

BTW, in the cover letter, I would only mention that you want the modified oath and that it would be in contradiction to your religious beliefs to take it. No further rationale is required (i.e., there is no need for a lengthy argument why you want the modified oath.)
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Thank you so much for all the help. I hope to have it all ready to mail tomorrow and then I guess I'll just be on my final waiting line as far as immigration stuff goes :)
 
casolorz said:
Thank you so much for all the help. I hope to have it all ready to mail tomorrow and then I guess I'll just be on my final waiting line as far as immigration stuff goes :)
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Good luck, and let us know how things turn out.
 
natur08 said:
Good luck, and let us know how things turn out.
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natur08,

Thanks for the information. I was wondering if you have gone through the process of modified oath regarding bearing arms yourself.

I am just not sure what exactly would "establish" that "I am opposed to any type of Service" and "the beliefs are sincere, meaningful and deeply held"

I will provide a letter from my religious organization, but am not sure if simply writing in brief in the cover letter about the above two points would be enough.

If you went through this process yourself or knew someone who did this, that would be great.

Thanks.
 
shreekhand said:
natur08,

Thanks for the information. I was wondering if you have gone through the process of modified oath regarding bearing arms yourself.

I am just not sure what exactly would "establish" that "I am opposed to any type of Service" and "the beliefs are sincere, meaningful and deeply held"

I will provide a letter from my religious organization, but am not sure if simply writing in brief in the cover letter about the above two points would be enough.

If you went through this process yourself or knew someone who did this, that would be great.

Thanks.
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I did go through the process myself and had my oath modified. There are actually a number of posts from me on the subject on this forum, so you may be able to find more information by searching it. In a nutshell, you need to establish:

To qualify for the exemption from the promises to bear arms and to perform noncombatant service in the military, a petitioner must show each of the following; (1) that he is "opposed to any type of service"; (2) that his objection is grounded in religious principles, as construed by the Supreme Court in Welsh v. U.S. , 398 U.S. 333 (1970), and U.S. v. Seeger , 280 U.S. 163 (1965); and (3) that his beliefs are sincere, meaningful, and deeply held.

You should request the modified oath in a cover letter (and have the letter from the religious organization at the interview). Only request the modified oath and state the points above in the cover letter, do not give a lengthy reasoning which can be turned against you.

Your religious organization can support you in that, but whoever writes the letter needs to cover the legal points. A long attestation to your character may be meaningless if the letter does not address them. (Ask whether they have done this before. If they have not, get advice from an organization such as the Center on Conscience & War.)

You also need to check "No" on question 36, 37, and 38, and "Yes" on questions 34, 35, and 39. Checking "No" on question 39 will get you denied.

Be prepared for some significant pushback from the IO who may not understand the subtleties or be hostile to a modified oath. If you have any other issues with your application that requires IO discretion, the request for a modified oath may work against you (even though in a perfect world, it shouldn't).
 
natur08,

So I had my N-400 interview recently, got my app. approved with the modified oath without the "bear arms" provision on religious grounds. Interesting thing is, that for me, the officer verified the content in the supporting letters I had provided and approved it, but in the case of my spouse, another officer simply said he does not know much about the religion and hence marked "a decision cannot be made at this time". He had already made up his mind about this and did not want to ask any questions to my spouse. We both had the same content in the covering and supporting letters! The application otherwise was a simple one - no other issue whatsoever.

Any idea regarding how long their review would take and whether my spouse may need additional documentation/another interview ?
Not sure whether referring to my approved case, in case they ask for more docs, would help bolster my spouses' case.

If, after the whole process, they say they cannot approve the modified oath, is it fine to take the normal oath?
 
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non_linear said:
natur08,

So I had my N-400 interview recently, got my app. approved with the modified oath without the "bear arms" provision on religious grounds. Interesting thing is, that for me, the officer verified the content in the supporting letters I had provided and approved it, but in the case of my spouse, another officer simply said he does not know much about the religion and hence marked "a decision cannot be made at this time". He had already made up his mind about this and did not want to ask any questions to my spouse. We both had the same content in the covering and supporting letters! The application otherwise was a simple one - no other issue whatsoever.

Any idea regarding how long their review would take and whether my spouse may need additional documentation/another interview ?
Not sure whether referring to my approved case, in case they ask for more docs, would help bolster my spouses' case.

If, after the whole process, they say they cannot approve the modified oath, is it fine to take the normal oath?
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Congratulations, non_linear! I am pleasantly surprised that your offices knew exactly what to do in your case, since many do not.

In my case, I also got a "decision cannot be made", and it took exactly 120 days and a few calls to my senator's office to get approved (see my timeline). The IO had asked her supervisor, who gave a nonsensical answer. She then offered to have the application reviewed by the "legal department".

Regarding your spouse, I would assume that a more enlightened and competent supervisor should be able to approve the application, provided the supporting letter touches on all the required legal items. I would not worry too much at this point and just wait for now. If you don't hear anything after 90 days, open a service request through their call center, make an InfoPass or get your congress person involved. In the unlikely event that they issue a denial, it would be up to you to decide whether to fight it (with a potentially costly but high chance of prevailing) or just giving in and offering to take the normal oath. I am not sure whether the USCIS would accept that or not; I am not aware of any such case.
 
Thanks natur08. Looks like an ideal case of YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary) !

I have a feeling my spouse my just get the Oath Letter in the mail. My hope is that they might look at my case and decide to apply the same standards. Interestingly my spouses' officer crossed out the those portions of the oath and also asked to put the signature.

Did your IO ask the supervisor during the interview ?

Let's see what happens. Not too worried.
 
non_linear said:
Thanks natur08. Looks like an ideal case of YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary) !

I have a feeling my spouse my just get the Oath Letter in the mail. My hope is that they might look at my case and decide to apply the same standards. Interestingly my spouses' officer crossed out the those portions of the oath and also asked to put the signature.

Did your IO ask the supervisor during the interview ?

Let's see what happens. Not too worried.
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If your spouse's officer already crossed out the lines in question, I would not be too worried. Then again, one never knows.

Yes, my IO asked her supervisor during the interview, came back into the room and declared that the modified oath would not apply in my case. I then had to politely but firmly object and insist on further review.
 
Quick question: In your initial interview, were those lines of oath also crossed out and were you asked put your signature below the oath? Or, did you go again to sign the form and modified oath after they decided to approve it.
 
non_linear said:
Quick question: In your initial interview, were those lines of oath also crossed out and were you asked put your signature below the oath? Or, did you go again to sign the form and modified oath after they decided to approve it.
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The IO would not let me cross out the oath lines, and I did not want to come back just to sign the form. So we agreed on a compromise that I would sign the form as is and add the words "Modified oath requested". After the oath, I requested my file through a FOIA request, and sure enough, the lines were crossed out.
 
Completing the loop here: My spouse got a re-interview. At the interview there was a different officer who mentioned the same thing about not knowing much about the religion etc. (one would have assumed they did some research between the two interviews, but it was just a new clueless though polite officer!). After my spouse persisting and informing about my own case with modified oath being approved months ago, it was just a few minutes of brief discussions between the officer, his supervisor and prob. someone else and the case was approved and the oath letter mailed the same day. Frankly, this could have easily happened the first time. It all depends whether the officer wants to ask the supervisor or just pass the buck/delay/be lazy!

We knew it would happen just didn't know when... all in all a good experience.
 
If you don't mind, can you please let me/us know how long did it take to get the FOIA records? Did you request the complete A file (Alien file)? Thanks!

natur08 said:
After the oath, I requested my file through a FOIA request, and sure enough, the lines were crossed out.
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non_linear said:
Completing the loop here: My spouse got a re-interview. At the interview there was a different officer who mentioned the same thing about not knowing much about the religion etc. (one would have assumed they did some research between the two interviews, but it was just a new clueless though polite officer!). After my spouse persisting and informing about my own case with modified oath being approved months ago, it was just a few minutes of brief discussions between the officer, his supervisor and prob. someone else and the case was approved and the oath letter mailed the same day. Frankly, this could have easily happened the first time. It all depends whether the officer wants to ask the supervisor or just pass the buck/delay/be lazy!

We knew it would happen just didn't know when... all in all a good experience.
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Congratulations! Great that it all worked out in the end.
 
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