Immigration Bill Fails Again!

[cscgc]

The flawed immigration bill(provisions opposed by AILA and many others) has again failed to clear the senate effectively killing it till a new president takes it up. This is great news!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070628/ap_on_go_pr_wh/congress_immigration

The house may still go head with peacemeal legislations like increasing H1 and other useful measures.

 

[myredskins]

The flawed immigration bill(provisions opposed by AILA and many others) has again failed to clear the senate effectively killing it till a new president takes it up. This is great news!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070628/ap_on_go_pr_wh/congress_immigration

The house may still go head with peacemeal legislations like increasing H1 and other useful measures.

Why is it great news? THe main sticking point in that bill is the issue that 12 million illegals will leave the US to re-apply (in Republican proposed ammendments). It never will happen, so I dont think there is anyway of solving that besides what was proposed (giving illegal visas and creating a path for them towards legality). Inaction is action.

Remember also, fact that you might have come here legally is irrelavant in this case. Some people just use their emotions when dealing with this issue. Eventually a solution will be resolved. LAws are written by people daily.

 

[cscgc]

putting things into perspective

Why is it great news? THe main sticking point in that bill is the issue that 12 million illegals will leave the US to re-apply (in Republican proposed ammendments). It never will happen, so I dont think there is anyway of solving that besides what was proposed (giving illegal visas and creating a path for them towards legality). Inaction is action.

Remember also, fact that you might have come here legally is irrelavant in this case. Some people just use their emotions when dealing with this issue. Eventually a solution will be resolved. LAws are written by people daily.

Ok, my earlier post should give more clarification about my position

http://www.immigrationportal.com/showpost.php?p=1712228&postcount=15

I am of the view that

1. This issue is definitely a problem that eventually needs solution(which I have suggestions and can start a thread for healthy discussion if you are interested )
2. It is relevant to all legal immigrants as many of the benefits that they have is compromised in this bill.

 

[myredskins]

Ok, my earlier post should give more clarification about my position

http://www.immigrationportal.com/showpost.php?p=1712228&postcount=15

I am of the view that

1. This issue is definitely a problem that eventually needs solution(which I have suggestions and can start a thread for healthy discussion if you are interested )
2. It is relevant to all legal immigrants as many of the benefits that they have is compromised in this bill.

You can start a thread we surely will contribute. But you need to remember that American Citizens have a right to write laws at any time they choose to. If you are in the process of immigration you have no voice but to live under whatever rules are available or under which you qualify.

So yes this might be a victory for you, coz maybe your status quo is maintained, but eventually they will write a law. And I am of the opinion that it might be harsher than the present environment and the point based system that the bill was proposing.

I dont want to rant for too long, my point is that bring the issues on and lets debate them.

 

[Tommy_Chicago]

Well I glad that the bill do not pass and here is why!!!

First - there are a bunch of us here who are waiting for clearance, EAD, Interview ect and don't cause any trouble and life our lives, and all of us here on this borad have a valid reason to be here in the US either Thurough marriage or relative.

It would not be fair to everyone on this board - that all of the illegal immigrants would receive GC just because, We on this board gone a long way month even years to be at where we are, all of us paid taxes, got married to US of GC holders. My opinion is that if you are here illegally go home wherever this might be there is no room for you here - If you are not suppose to be here legally like all of us here you should not be here in this country. We would all be rich people if our spouses did have to pay all ofthe high fees for the applications and everything that is involved not to mention taxes, insurance ect.... So that is why I think that it not fair for a person who is illegally here that would be legalized just because.

Thanks.

No offense.....

 

[cscgc]

You can start a thread we surely will contribute. But you need to remember that American Citizens have a right to write laws at any time they choose to. If you are in the process of immigration you have no voice but to live under whatever rules are available or under which you qualify.

So yes this might be a victory for you, coz maybe your status quo is maintained, but eventually they will write a law. And I am of the opinion that it might be harsher than the present environment and the point based system that the bill was proposing.

I dont want to rant for too long, my point is that bring the issues on and lets debate them.

Actually it is not about me or any other individuals, my point was only that change in laws(that favors illegals) should not come as a cost to legal immigrants, those who were welcomed by the system here and did not barge in.

I became a Citizen last month and I am well aware laws will definitely change but it will be open to all and debated in Senate and the House that is the wonderful democracy that is being followed here. You should watch CSPAN-2 on TV and you could see the Senators are not only well composed(everybody gets chance to speak with little interruptions) while debating such a turbulent topic as this and there is also a lot of bi-partism, senators who can work across party ideology.

 

[RockOn!!]

I'm glad it failed.

It's utter bullshit. Sorry, but I can't agree that millions of illegal immigrants suddenly get amnesty after breaking the law while I break my balls going through the stress of doing things the legal way.

The new immigration bill does have some good points, I LOVE the point system based on education, you can't go wrong with that, honestly. You cut down on the amount of "hooligans" that migrate, get more "quality" educated immigrants, which in turn works for the U.S economy and society as a whole.

I think it's great especially for students who have paid their $1000 odd dollar tuitions, paid their U.S taxes, and stayed in status for 3-4 years, learned english, learned U.S customs and have pretty much made the U.S their home for that time span and can fit right in.

How do you stop the brain drain? Limit VISAs based on education to those who have attended U.S colleges only, it's only "fair", I know it sounds harsh but we can't have everyone with a degree from every internationally accredited institute migrating to the U.S based on this system every year can we.

 

[TheRealCanadian]

The new immigration bill does have some good points, I LOVE the point system based on education, you can't go wrong with that, honestly. You cut down on the amount of "hooligans" that migrate, get more "quality" educated immigrants, which in turn works for the U.S economy and society as a whole.

We should all remember that while broadly speaking education can get you better jobs and more opportunities, the relationship gets weaker and weaker the smaller the sample size. At the individual level, it's questionable.

In Canada, where we have a point system, there's a famous story of PhDs driving taxicabs because while their credentials got them waved in through the door immigration-wise, they were unable to find a job. There needs to be some link between employability and immigration, otherwise you end up with bureaucrats deciding what the economy "needs", and that never succeeds.

Limit VISAs based on education to those who have attended U.S colleges only, it's only "fair", I know it sounds harsh but we can't have everyone with a degree from every internationally accredited institute migrating to the U.S based on this system every year can we.

Why not? A Rhodes Scholar is probably far more intelligent, productive and desirable than someone who got their degree at Middle Podunk State, even if it was from some "foreign" university.

 

[myredskins]

My points are simple that the laws are written by the American people and can be changed anytime. So here is a scenario, imagine if all illegal immigrants could marry a US citizen, what happens? Wont their sins be forgiven? I am pretty sure a significant bunch of people adjusting their status through marriage might at one point or another violated their status, and they are lucky there is a law that allows them who at one point were illegal to get fast tracked in the immigration process. So people should stop being mean, but be realistic and address these questions:
1) Is there a way in which the illegals in this country can be deported in all their thousands? I dont think so and given that what laws could be written to bring them out of the shadows? Coz as a matter of fact most of these people are known as citizens in their workplaces, so they pay tax although they stand no chance of getting social security benefits.

That is the real question in this debate. It's of no use to use words like "fair" etc, coz they are vague.

It is my humble opinion that labor hungry USA likes the status quo (they do not want and will not secure the border, partly because it is impractical and secondly big money corps wants cheap labor to be competitive).

This govt is not serious about immigration reform. It is a known fact that illegal immigrants have an incentive to work hard and stay out of trouble as they know that if caught they have no second chance. So they are the good citizens and they are contributing immensely to the American Economy.

 

[myredskins]

I'm glad it failed.

It's utter bullshit. Sorry, but I can't agree that millions of illegal immigrants suddenly get amnesty after breaking the law while I break my balls going through the stress of doing things the legal way.

.

I wonder what made you rush into marriage as a student? I could speculate that you realized that you might have problems finding a job under H1B visa, so you are trying other means. True or not, good hussle. So coz things are working for you in a certain way dont belittle the people who are coming from other nations here to make a living. Just like you they want to stay, so if there is a law that can be written to accomodate them why not? I know tons of people who come here on F1's and cant cant jobs afterwards coz H1B are limited, they then become illegals. There are H1B's who get fired, and stay, they immediately become illegal. If your wife divorces you before 2 yrs, you might find ur self in trouble too failing to remove the conditions by urself, you might be illegal.. so what u going to do then? So man, open your eyes, this subject of legality is subject to interpretation.

You are not being objective but using emotions, laws are not and should not be written like that, to make you feel good. Good laws are written to address a real problem, so hold on to your emotions coz thats not how public policy is determined.

 

[myredskins]

Well I glad that the bill do not pass and here is why!!!

First - there are a bunch of us here who are waiting for clearance, EAD, Interview ect and don't cause any trouble and life our lives, and all of us here on this borad have a valid reason to be here in the US either Thurough marriage or relative.

.....

Who told you that illegal immigrants cause trouble? Do you know how easy it is to become illegal in this country? Read my other posts in this thread maybe u will get an idea.

It would not be fair to everyone on this board - that all of the illegal immigrants would receive GC just because, We on this board gone a long way month even years to be at where we are, all of us paid taxes, got married to US of GC holders. My opinion is that if you are here illegally go home wherever this might be there is no room for you here - If you are not suppose to be here legally like all of us here you should not be here in this country.
No offense.....

OK dude, there are people in this forum who have been illegal but use marriage to a USC to regain their status. Illegals pay taxes too and stand no chance of ever gettting their social security benefits, so I dont know what u are talking about. Check your facts.

 

[PraetorianXI]

Illegals who get paid in cash do not pay taxes and still get benefits (like emergency medicaid for delivery of babies).

Illegals drive without a license or insurance, and if one of them hits your car... forget about their "insurance" paying you.

Not all Illegals break the law, with the exception of the immigration law. But not all of them are saints either.

 

[austriacus]

I think rather than emotional issues (about legal immigrants deserving more or less than illegals), we need to look ahead at how any change in the immigration laws affects the nation as a whole, since presumably we and our descendents will be living here for quite a while and be affected by it, long after we have immigrated.

I follow Lou Dobbs' portrayal of the issue a lot, not sure how impartial he is, but one of his main points is that illegal immigration may benefit the private sector by providing cheap labor, but puts external costs on the society by means of the benefits that the illegal immigrants and their families receive.

So any change in the immigration laws should consider this cost to the nation. The way I look at it, people who are willing to work for lower wages do so because their cost of living is somehow lower. If illegal immigrants were required to pay taxes, health insurance, etc. all on top of the additional costs of legal immigration, I don't believe they would want to work for low paying jobs. They would demand similar wages as any American. The incentive for illegal immigration would diminish, and at the same time these workers would pay their fair share into the system. But how can we achieve such a system? I think a good start would be to encourage them to practice more English, rather than disencourage them; that's the first step to success, to master the language customarily spoken in the country one intends to live in.

 

[myredskins]

I follow Lou Dobbs' portrayal of the issue a lot, not sure how impartial he is, but one of his main points is that illegal immigration may benefit the private sector by providing cheap labor, but puts external costs on the society by means of the benefits that the illegal immigrants and their families receive.

Lou Dobbs is not a well trained Economist. The truth of the matter is that labor is the life blood of America. Some industries that rely a lot on unskilled labor could crumble if illegal people all of a sudden became legal, and hence became protected by labor laws. Right now we could say illegal unskilled workers are being exploited but put yourself in their shoes. They consider themselves to be benefiting too from the current situation, coz:

1) In their home country they couldnt find jobs, so America offers them something;
2) If they tried to imigrate legally they probably couldn't make it coz of low education;

My simple point is that the current system is beneficial to both the farmers in the Southern & Western States, and workers themselves. It is debateable whether their demands on education, healthcare etc outweigh the gains from agricultural production (or what ever industry they are in) that they contribute towards. SO in short people can't just pull it from no where (like Lou Dobbs) that illegal immigrants deplete resources, coz there is no data to support that.

*** Lastly people make the mistake of associating illegality with Mexicans, but that is a huge stereotype. & it is wrong.

 

[PraetorianXI]

Ha! I would say that for every "legal" (not USC born of mexican parents) mexican there is 100 illegal. If not more

 

[austriacus]

myredskins, but isn't the US a world leader in terms of substituting labor with technology in production? I think the industry "need" for cheap illegal labor needs some strategic leadershio to steer it away from this situation. My guess is that one or all of three things could happen: (1) production costs rise due to higher wages, forcing US consumers to be less wasteful, (2) production costs are offset by substituting labor for technology, (3) production costs are offset by outsourcing food production to cheaper labor countries (but I hope the government will prevent this through appropriate tariffs/well enforced food safety standards).

 

[RockOn!!]

I wonder what made you rush into marriage as a student? I could speculate that you realized that you might have problems finding a job under H1B visa, so you are trying other means. True or not, good hussle. So coz things are working for you in a certain way dont belittle the people who are coming from other nations here to make a living.

Excuse you sir? Do not sit there and judge me. My marriage was not RUSHED into, be it by my age, status in the U.S or any other circumstance. Honestly, I "rushing" into a marriage was definitely not a "last resoirt" for me, I'll just leave it at that.

On further note, I'm not putting anyone down. I'm saying it's BULLSHIT, point blank. It was granting amnesty to illegal immigrants. Key word ILLEGAL. That's just the way the cookie crumbles.

We should all remember that while broadly speaking education can get you better jobs and more opportunities, the relationship gets weaker and weaker the smaller the sample size. At the individual level, it's questionable.

In Canada, where we have a point system, there's a famous story of PhDs driving taxicabs because while their credentials got them waved in through the door immigration-wise, they were unable to find a job. There needs to be some link between employability and immigration, otherwise you end up with bureaucrats deciding what the economy "needs", and that never succeeds.

I agree, but people will not be able to find jobs regardless when so many people are practicing the same thing. In most cases, the ones that are better will get the job. No matter how many people are great at picking onions they'll probably hire the one that has been picking them for 7 years as opposed to 6.

Right now there's an explosion of lawyers in my country and that's without outside lawyers immigrating here. Does Canada use a yearly "cap" for those immigrating through the point system?

Why not? A Rhodes Scholar is probably far more intelligent, productive and desirable than someone who got their degree at Middle Podunk State, even if it was from some "foreign" university.

To control the brain drain is why not. And yes, that's true, but if said person is REALLY that much more desirable than a U.S trained applicant the company should be willing to go through the avenues of sponsoring him/her the type of work permit they would need to come on board.
This leaves those who had attended "Middle Podunk State"-like U.S colleges to rely on nothing but their ability to be better than others in their same field in order to land the same job.
The type of jobs I'm taking about here aren't first come first serve, they are jobs that need qualifications, experience, references and the like, you either have it or you don't.

 

[myredskins]

myredskins, but isn't the US a world leader in terms of substituting labor with technology in production? I think the industry "need" for cheap illegal labor needs some strategic leadershio to steer it away from this situation. My guess is that one or all of three things could happen: (1) production costs rise due to higher wages, forcing US consumers to be less wasteful, (2) production costs are offset by substituting labor for technology, (3) production costs are offset by outsourcing food production to cheaper labor countries (but I hope the government will prevent this through appropriate tariffs/well enforced food safety standards).

Sounds like I am in a production economics class again. IN theory what you are saying makes sense, but consider the following industries:

1) EVen though tech is available in Agriculture some of the tasks are still best done cheaply (and much cleaner than using machines) by hand. There are many crops i could list here, strawberries, grapes, tomatoes etc.. tech has limitations;
2) Construction industries... assistant brick layers are always going to be human, in building houses.. laying concrete etc..;
3) I also think it is cheaper for the US to use labor than to develop new technologies coz the labor is available (in Central & South America). Its not like this is Japan which is isolated, and has population limitations, and techonology has to save the day. Not here.
4) As long as the MExican economy is not doing as well as the US, people will continue to stream across the border.

Given that I think the best way of curbing illegal immigration is to make it almost impossible to work here if u dont have the right to work.

Building fences is not enough.

As for the 12-20 millions estimated illegals already here, you can be damn sure they are not leaving the US, and a significant portion of those people work and claim that they are US citizens. So they have the same benefits employment wise as u and me, coz its really easy here to claim u are a US citizen. People do it all the time.

 

[myredskins]

Excuse you sir? Do not sit there and judge me. My marriage was not RUSHED into, be it by my age, status in the U.S or any other circumstance. Honestly, I "rushing" into a marriage was definitely not a "last resoirt" for me, I'll just leave it at that.

On further note, I'm not putting anyone down. I'm saying it's BULLSHIT, point blank. It was granting amnesty to illegal immigrants. Key word ILLEGAL. That's just the way the cookie crumbles.

Well saying granting amnesty is bullshit without proposing a way forward for the problem is not useful at all. Public policy is not written like that. It appears to me you are in that same realm of people who think that its evil to be illegal, when there is fine line between legality and illegality in this country.

 

[TheRealCanadian]

In most cases, the ones that are better will get the job. No matter how many people are great at picking onions they'll probably hire the one that has been picking them for 7 years as opposed to 6.

And the point I'm attempting to make is that external, quantifiable criteria are pretty useless after a certain point. Experience isn't much different - after a few years in any given profession, experience ceases to have any defining value. There's nothing that automatically makes a person with 10 years' experience less qualified than someone with 12 or 15.

Does Canada use a yearly "cap" for those immigrating through the point system?

I believe so, but the cap is rarely reached. Immigration quotas in Canada are sufficiently high that for the US to take in an equivalent amount of immigrants, our caps would need to be 25 million per year or so.

To control the brain drain is why not.

I don't see why ANY entity has a responsibility to control brain drain. Should Google or Microsoft stop hiring smart people because it's a brain drain from other companies? Why should the US stop attracting the smartest and most hard working people? I can't see that being in our national interest. We have enough stupid, lazy people as it is.

And yes, that's true, but if said person is REALLY that much more desirable than a U.S trained applicant the company should be willing to go through the avenues of sponsoring him/her the type of work permit they would need to come on board.

But you just said that work visas based on education should be limited to those graduating from US colleges. Catch-22!