How many of you carry the actual GC on person at all times?

[Zaye]

In the documentation I received with the GC, it says that we should carry the original card with us at all times. That is the law.

Ofcourse since we worked so hard to actually get the GC and since it is such a laborious process to actually replace it - I am very hesitant to carry the original with me. Infact, I believe the safest place for it is probably in a safety deposit box.

Is carrying a NOTARIZED photocopy a safe enough bet? What do most of the other members on the forum do??

Thanks for your input. If the prevailing opinion is that the original must be carried at all times - then I guess that that is what I will have to do!

 

[Zaye]

Re: Re: How many of you carry the actual GC on person at all times?

Originally posted by JoeF
Opinions don't matter. Just follow the law.

Good point.

 

[Zaye]

JoeF: I don't want too make too complicated an issue out of this. But what exactly does the law say? I know that you mentioned that an INS officer told you to carry the card on your person. However, the BCIS website states:

http://www.bcis.gov/graphics/howdoi/PermRes.htm#card

The Permanent Resident Card, Form I-551, is issued to all Permanent Residents as evidence of alien registration and their permanent status in the US. The card must be in your possession at all times. While that does not require that you have on your person at all times, it does require that you have a currently valid card and that you know where it is and can show it to an immigration officer, if requested.

So according to their website, the law does not require one to carry the card on person.

You are absolutely correct that there is nothing difficult about carrying a plastic card in one's wallet. However, this is no ordinary plastic card like a plain credit card would be. There are two concerns:

1. Of course the concern that if you misplace your wallet, you have misplaced a very valuable document - far more valuable than an ordinary credit card.

2. Since the GC contains computer readable optical media - could there be degradation in the quality of the encoded information if you carry it around exposing it to frequent physical stress, temperature variation etc.

Also, you are correct that there is nothing physically laborious about filling out an I-90 form. However, given the long processing times, and the anxiety that one will have if one misplaces their GC, isn't it logical to assume that it is better to keep the card in a secure location than carry it around with you - law permitting of course.

Sorry for prolonging this - but I am really interested in what the actual law requires - clearly from the BCIS website carrying on person is not required.

Thanks.

 

[gb111]

Zaye,

To answer your question, I don't carry my physical card with me unless i am travelling.

I'll prefer to follow the apparently "wrong" instructions posted on the USCIS web-site, rather than risk losing my card and having to endure the 1 year wait to get a replacement. While the stamp does have the same legal bearing as the physical card, I did have to endure multiple checks while on vacation in Europe with the stamp. You certainly won't have that problem with the physical card.

As far as the identity theft issue mentioned by ***someone*** with regard to losing your credit card, its not true.

If someone gets a hold of your credit card, he/she cannot apply for a new one and steal your identity. For that, they need to get a hold of your social security number, and I certainly hope you don't carry that around in your wallet.

Any if anyone does happen to use your credit card fraudulently, you are not liable for most of the charges (I know of cases where you might be out $50, but thats about all....).

Just don't worry about it too much, though. Enjoy your newly attained pseudo-freedoms in this country....

 

[nkm-oct23]

I don't carry my card either, I just have a photocopy of it. I think the USCIS website just clarifies what "in posssession" really means from their perspective, it does not mean that one needs to have the card on person, ( i.e. in one's wallet) at all times. Their interpretation of "in possession" means that the card should be in an easily accessible location and should be produced in a reasonable period of time. I am sticking with this interpretation.

I would rather lose a credit card instead of a green card. If I lose a credit card I can simply call the credic card company and my new card will be on its way. Not so with a green card, you need to show up at BCIS office, fill out a form, pay fees and wait for the next many months.

 

[Zaye]

Originally posted by gb111
Zaye,

To answer your question, I don't carry my physical card with me unless i am travelling.

I'll prefer to follow the apparently "wrong" instructions posted on the USCIS web-site, rather than risk losing my card and having to endure the 1 year wait to get a replacement. While the stamp does have the same legal bearing as the physical card, I did have to endure multiple checks while on vacation in Europe with the stamp. You certainly won't have that problem with the physical card.

As far as the identity theft issue mentioned by ***someone*** with regard to losing your credit card, its not true.

If someone gets a hold of your credit card, he/she cannot apply for a new one and steal your identity. For that, they need to get a hold of your social security number, and I certainly hope you don't carry that around in your wallet.

Any if anyone does happen to use your credit card fraudulently, you are not liable for most of the charges (I know of cases where you might be out $50, but thats about all....).

Just don't worry about it too much, though. Enjoy your newly attained pseudo-freedoms in this country....

gb111 and nkm-oct23 I sincerely appreciate your input on this matter. I think both of you are from a majority of people who do not carry the actual card on your person. However JoeF has a very valid point - that carrying the actual card on your person is clearly required by law.

I just checked with my attorney as well - and she clearly said that yes, carrying the original card on person was mandatory. While I personally think this is quite a ridiculous rule - what I think does not really matter. Having gone through so much effort to actually get the card, I do not want to make a mistake and jeopardize my status.

I know that the probability of someone actually stopping me and asking me to produce the original card is VERY slight - however I do not feel comfortable taking any risk at all.

In summary, I think the value of guarding the PR status (by obeying the actual law) outweighs the benefit of guarding the physical PR card (by keeping it in a safe place).

To each his own, but thanks for the debate

 

[octo]

not so clear cut

Originally posted by JoeF
Interpretations have to be in the law (for immigration law, interpretations are in 8CFR).
It doesn't matter what is on a website.
Most of the time, the stuff on the website works, but if they want to bust you, they can because you violated the law. Stuff on a website doesn't have the power of the law.
So what? Your status as PR does not change, and the stamp is as good as the card.
As I said, this is rather a psychological thing for new PRs.

You know, if they _want_ to 'bust' you, they will, regardless of whether you carry the card or not. There are options available to them (e.g. "you didn't file a change of address... busted!" (forget about your receipt from the USPS that you sent it to the INS - this only proves that you sent *something* but not what...)). Please note that I emphasized the '_want_ to bust'.

I think that it is really ignorant to brush away concerns about replacing the PR card by saying that this is a 'psychological thing' for newbees. Joe, have you ever had to replace your card?

I had to replace it two times in a row, because the INS couldn't get my country of birth right (Austria vs. Australia - it was the stereotypical mix-up). I became PR in spring 2001. It took until Summer 2003 to actually get a card that didn't have any errors on it. It was a _lot_ more hassle than replacing a credit card (and no, losing your credit card does not mean automatic identity theft). I didn't exactly enjoy the humiliating "I am a powerful US citizen and you are an alien worm" attitude I always encountered with the slow-as-molasses moving INS employees. The black hole bureacracy, where you never know whats going on with your replacement application (e.g.'its been a year now since I filed and I haven't heard anything since the receipt - WTF is going on?!? - its way beyond the projected timeline - call the INS SC? - always busy - call the national line? - they have no clue besides their script... - write them? - could as well toss the letter in the trash. So the only real option is "wait".)

In the meantime (well, before I got the card this summer), my passport is full of I551 stamps (no big deal, ok), the current stamp is expiring - lets go for another dose of INS fun treatment (and lose another of my plenty vacation days for this fun experience). Oh, you want to travel. Be prepared for a nice interview in the special holding area for suspect aliens - this happens, especially, if your passport is littered with red I551 stamps, two canceled H1 visas (without prejudice), no actual PR card and a terrorist paranoid immigration staff.

Now, after you lost your card, how do you prove to be a PR? First, have fun getting your PP stamped. I am sure, the local friendly immigration office will be happy to stamp your PP without conducting a lengthy background check because you just showed up with what - a PP and a lousy photocopy of some old immigration docs? If you are lucky to secure the stamp without too much hassle, what do you do next to follow the letter of the law? Right, you carry your handy PP with you all the time in lieu of the actual card. 24/7 for a year or so until you might get the card? Just make sure, you never lose it because then your are SOL.

No, Joe, in my opinion, it is simply negligent to carry this card with you all the time. It is not easy to replace, despite you making it sound so. If you encounter a sympathetic or neutral immigration official wanting to see the card, you will be able to produce it in a short time just as the USCIS web site says and if you encounter a hostile immigration official, that person can make your life miserable regardless of you carrying the card or not. The letter of the law is not that black and white as you make it sound.

 

[Upstate_NY]

Personally, I would not encourage anyone to carry the GC Plastic while in the US. Of course, one needs it while traveling.

The thought of losing the Plastic is a nightmare. It is easier said than done to replace. The nightmare cost $$ and high Blood Pressure!

Why not keep a photocopy of the Card in the wallet? If traveling overseas, carry photocopies.

 

[cpmumbai2002]

Fully agree!!

Fully agree with octo on this issue. Carrying the physical card on person and risking losing it and going through all the hassle to replace it is not worth it. I don't carry it with me and I doubt if more than even 10% of PRs do.

 

[octo]

Re: Re: not so clear cut

Originally posted by JoeF
No, but I had to get new CCs, drivers license, etc. because I lost my wallet. And that is much more of a hassle.
What is the hassle of filing an I-90? You file it and wait for the card. That's it.

No thats not it. You keep ignoring the reality that there are situations where you need the card to avoid further hassels. For example:

* At a POE, it is not fun to be held for more than an hour because you are considered suspicious for not having the card. This did happen to me, so don't just brush away this anecdote.

* I did not particularly enjoy educating the I9 administrator at my workplace that technically she was violating the law when she insisted that she needed the green card as proof of work permit while refusing to take my SSN card + drivers license.

* The stamp expires in a year. I did not get my replacement cards after one year (twice) but I had to have a current stamp. For me, it is a big deal to lose two vacation days (one to file the I90, one for re-stamping) and I don't enjoy the anxiety that I feel while sitting in the local offices' waiting room for _hours_ while the officers take their sweet time to stamp my PP.

* In the current climate, try to get an unrestricted SSN card without a real PR card. It used to be easy to get but its not anymore.

I also lost one of my CCs some time ago. All I did to get a new one is call their 1-800 number and a few days later I had a new card in the mailbox. If replacing a CC is tough for you already, pray that you never lose your PR card, cause you will be in for a nasty surprise.

Originally posted by JoeF
Besides, as I have shown, carrying the card is the law.
[/B]

No, you also painted a totally unrealistic picture that it is trivial to get a new PR card. If it was that easy, do you really think I would type a 'novel' in a message board on the Internet?
To your credit, it is easy in theory, but not necessarily in practice.

Originally posted by JoeF

If you let yourself be humiliated... Be polite, but firm and know your rights. That helps a lot.

You know, this is a cynical advise. Next time I stand in line at 4am in the morning in front of the USCIS (or whatever they are called now) building I try to follow this advise. I am sure it will help me a lot when I finally sit in the waiting room wondering if I am paranoid or if this system is intentionally set up to make aliens feel inferior. Compared to the immigration staff, the dispatchers at Six Flags are superefficient models of productivity. If you have ever been to a Six Flags, you will get my point.

Originally posted by JoeF

Again, be prepared, polite and know your rights. Here is an example: on my last trip abroad, the TSA screener wanted me to take off my shoes. I asked why, and pointed to their website, where they say that this isn't required. End result: I didn't need to take my shoes off.

Well, I don't feel humiliated when they ask me to remove my shoes (esp. if this is done to everybody else). I guess you don't feel humiliated, if an authority makes you wait for hours for something trivial like putting a stamp on the PP while giving you attitude.

Originally posted by JoeF

If you look at the law that I quoted, it doesn't say that you have to carry your passport with you.
"Every alien, eighteen years of age and over, shall at all times carry with him and have in his personal possession any certificate of alien registration or alien registration receipt card"
It is simply a violation of law to not carry the card. Plain and simple.

And following your logic, isn't the stamped PP exactly what you have to carry, while you are waiting for a year to get the replacement card? What else would be the proper alien registration in this case in your opinion?

I am no more a lawyer than you are but I do not think it is appropriate for you to say that "It is simply a violation of law not to carry the card. Plain and simple." If law were so plain and simple, then why is there a need for lawyers. Your strict interpretation is naive and frankly, supports the stereotype of the 'correct' German in a quite negative (because it is not well thought through) way.

For example, another interpretation of this passage, one, which at least on our 'amateur' level is just as valid as your black-and-white view, is that 'any' certificate of alien registration could also be a photocopy of the card.

A lot of your advise in the past years has been quite good on this site, but you are losing your credibility if you keep on insisting that replacing a PR card is a simple task like replacing a Credit Card. It was not in my case and I am reasonably sure it is not for many other people. It is a fact that it takes several months, just look at the processing times report under I90-replacements.

 

[octo]

Re: Re: Re: Re: not so clear cut

Originally posted by JoeF

Now, I don't have any problem with you consciously violating the law about carrying the GC. I am just pointing out what the law is, and that your excuses not to follow it are a bit shallow.

Actually, you missed my last paragraph. I do not ignore the law, I just think that a copy of the PR card passes the test for 'any' certificate of alien registration, provided it is not fraudulent. The law does not plain-and-simple say that it has to be the plastic card. So instead of me conciously violating the law, you are overzealously interpreting the law in a classic German fashion.

 

[Upstate_NY]

A quick clarification:

When I said - "carry photocopies", I meant photocopies ALSO. I thought that was understood.

In case the Plastic is lost, one has to go to the nearest US embassy/consulate to get the approval letter to reenter the States. Photocopies may help to prove to the Embassy Staff of one's PR status.

Regarding employment verification, drivers’ license & SSN are not enough! GC has to be produced to verify one's PR status.

 

[Zaye]

Whoa - this debate has really flared up. Now I am all confused again after hearing the accounts by octo and others about the trouble they went through for replacing their GC.

Honestly speaking, how likely is it that anyone is going to stop you on the street and ask for your GC. And even if somebody does and you show them the photocopy and tell them that original can be provided shortly - how likely is it that you will face a problem.

Perhaps the best solution is to carry a photocopy WITH a print out of the USCIS web page that states that the original card need not be carried on person.

 

[gb111]

Re: Re: Re: Re: not so clear cut

Originally posted by JoeF
I ask for a supervisor. I am just not easily intimidated. I know my rights.

Now, I don't have any problem with you consciously violating the law about carrying the GC. I am just pointing out what the law is, and that your excuses not to follow it are a bit shallow. [/B]

Wow! You really are a lot more naive than I have thought you to be, JoeF. (And that's saying a lot).

You are so caught up in having to say the last word in every thread, that you easily lose sight of the discussion. All you care about is your ***own*** opinion, and that is the very definition of shallow !!!

A bit shallow you say???!!!

Did you even bother to read Octo's account of what he has had to endure for the last two years??? Obviously not!!!

As far as not being easily intimidated, good luck with that when you are stuck in transit at some foreign airport, where the gate person refuses to let you board the plane because they don't recognize the validity of that I-551 stamp. Oh, wait, I forgot, you are going to be adamant and ask for a supervisor!!! Right!!! Wait a minute, is that your plane that just took off without you because the supervisor that you ***adamantly*** asked for was on a coffee break???

Guess what?!!! No more flights to the U.S. until tomorrow. And the supervisor has left for the day (a longer-than-expected coffee break). Well, since you are detained, a small holding cell at the airport is where you will now have to spend the rest of the night.

The next morning, the supervisor gets back and after a small apology you get to board the plane.

Sounds made-up? Well, it did happen to a good friend of mine last year. And guess what? He's not a terrorist!!! But he does happen to be brown, and that's all that mattered.

And before you proclaim knowing your rights and suing the people involved, good luck with that.... It was not a U.S. Immigration official that detained you. It happened to be some airport official in some middle-eastern country that you happened to be passing through in transit.

So, good luck with carrying the card around in your wallet. Your days of intimidating and coercing new immigrants are over. There's a new sheriff in town, and his name is Arnold

Most of us are law-abiding wanna-be citizens of the U.S. So, I'd like to reiterate my previous suggestion. Carry your plastic card with you when you are travelling. Keep it safely at home when you are not. And for your peace of mind, carry a photocopy of your plastic card if you want. And photos of your loved ones. You'll live a happier life!!!

 

[octo]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: not so clear cut

Originally posted by JoeF
It has to be a certificate issued to you. The only certificate that is issued is the actual card. You are the one who is trying to (badly) interpret the law so that it fits your opinion.

I am doing exactly the same as you, badly interpreting the law. 'Badly' is difficult to avoid because we both aren't experts - thats why I added the disclaimer that on our amateur level, my reasoning is just as valid, good, bad, meaningful, whatever.
You pretend to absolutely know what the legislature defined as the certificate in question. If the legislature would have wanted it to be plain-and-simple, they would have explicitely defined what the valid certificate is in this case. e.g. the alien registration card _only_ (emphasized - don't overread this) and omitted the word 'any'.

I am reasonably sure, that a photocopy is sufficient to avoid punishment, if you are indeed a PR. Thats why there are judges and lawyers. To interpret(!) the law and do justice. You would have to encounter a badly programmed robot as a judge who interprets the law without considering the intent of the law in order to get convicted of the crime you allege.

Anyway, this is as far as I will go to make my point that the law isn't a black and white matter. Feel free to continue ignoring this fact.

Originally posted by JoeF

And, btw, referring to an absurd cliche about a particular nationality is of course a red herring (and an ad-hominem attack.)

Like it or not, this cliche exists and it exists for a reason. With your stubburn insistence that this issue is covered by law in plain and simple terms, you are reinforcing this cliche. If you consider this to be an attack against your person, you need to grow thicker skin. In my book, an attack against a person would require a lot more offensive words than invoking a benign cliche. I didn't say something inflammatory, like all Germans are idiots, I basically said that Germans are known to be exact - in this case leading into a dead end, IMO. If you consider this to be absurd, you need to be more open minded about cliches. The reason why I invoked that cliche was because I wanted to point out your mistake of interpreting legalese in absolute terms.

I stand corrected, if you could actually quote a legal precedent confirming your stance. The only reference to this matter, besides the text of the law, that I know of, is from the BCIS web-site, where it states "...While that does not require that you have on your person at all times...", which, while not legally binding, is a lot stronger than _your_ (=not a lawyer or expert) strict interpretation, simply for the fact that it comes from the horse's mouth, a government web-site. Its an official statement. Sure, it doesn't mention a photocopy, but it indicates that the law isn't so clear cut as you make it seem (just as replacing a PR card isn't as simple as you think).

 

[gb111]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: not so clear cut

Originally posted by JoeF
I don't answer ad hominem attacks.

But you certainly don't shirk from levying them on others.... For someone as thick-headed as yourself, you certainly have a thin skin.

Originally posted by JoeF
That's what the court system is for. No need to get all excited. If the plane takes off without me, they get mail from my lawyer. It is as simple as that.

Read my posting again. Who are you going to sue here?

Originally posted by JoeF
It is of course important to not let emotions get the better of you, but rather keep a cool head.
Did you ever hear of the plight of people at the Portland, OR airport? They strip-searched a Chinese woman because they thought her passport was fake. Guess what, she sued and won against INS. That is the right way to go about it, not getting all hot-headed in a discussion.

As expected, you missed the crux of my example. This did NOT happen in the U.S.

Now, what does that have to do with anything? The status as PR is a US status. It has no legal value whatsoever in any other country. Besides, in such a case, you have to have the actual GC with you anyway, in order to be able to come back to the US. So please stick to the issue at hand.

You are obviously not very good at this stuff. The whole example was to prove how much trouble he went through with the stamp on his passport. He had lost his GC and was travelling with the stamp. As far as legal value, the U.S. routinely charges airlines (foreign in this case) the return fare for anyone who travels without valid documentation. This is why airline staff in foreign countries are wary about who they let on the plane.

But hey, I'm sure your lawyer will take care of this and sue foreign airlines/airport authorities....

So are you saying that your friend had the card and didn't carry it with him on his trip abroad?

He was travelling with a stamp. My example was to show how this can be a harrowing experience. As usual, you missed the most important point of the discussion i.e. in most foreign countries, the stamp is not as widely recognized by airline/airport personnel. This can cause unnecessary delays/trauma which is not very desirable when you are on a 20-hour flight back to the U.S.

Well, then just follow the law. I have quoted it.

This was supposed to be an open forum the last time I checked.
Maybe you are in charge now???

 

[gb111]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: not so clear cut

Originally posted by JoeF
Learn a bit more about law before you go on a diatribe... [/B]

It's ok by me if you want to incur the expense and hassle of suing foreign airlines for ***just*** causes.

I am just sick and tired of your intimidation and coercion tactics on this newsgroup. It is impossible for others to voice their opinions on this group if you happen to disagree with them.

None of us were debating the ***legal*** requirements of carrying the plastic GC around at all times. We were just talking about the pros and cons of doing the same, and the hassles involved in losing the physical card and getting a replacement.

So, before you ask me to learn more about the law, you should learn to respect the personal choices of others.

Some of us voluntarily take the risk of not carrying our physical GCs around at all times. You are free to choose any which way. Just don't intimidate or threaten us with deportation if we choose not to do so.

And just to remind you of the original point of this entire thread, go ahead and read the subject of the original thread.....

As for your frequent use of "ad hominem", let me remind you that you were the first to call octo "shallow" for not carrying his plastic card around at all times, just because he had to wait 2 years to get a replacement. That was your definition of shallow. I thought it was a perfectly valid reason. Again, a purely subjective assessment on your part as well as mine.

A lot of people on this group are aware of your passive-aggressive tactics to intimidate others, and I'm just voicing my displeasure at your frequent outbursts.

Hey, I have an idea! Maybe you can ask your lawyer to sue me because I don't happen to agree with you....

How's that for a diatribe?

 

[gb111]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: not so clear cut

Originally posted by JoeF
All I can say is:
Welcome to my killfile. [/B]

Thank you GOD!!!

 

[AmericanWannabe]

Just take a middle of the road approach. Carry the card
when you fly domestic, cross stateline,visit federal building,
go near military base, nuclear power plant, dam,
border region with other countries, places where known to
have a lot of illegal aliens.

50,000 people die each year in car accidents and many
of them must be aliens. 5000 of them would have not died
if they had bucled up and soem of them must be aliens
too. rate of Safety belt use (drivers passenger, fromt or back seat) in USA is only 70%,lowest among industrialized countries.
Many 3rd world countries do not even have seat belt law
so that I believe rate of seat belt use is even lower among
aliens because more of them are from 3rd world countries.
It make more sense to start always buckle up than worry
about carrying GC. AFter all, life is more important than
permanent residency.

 

[sadiq]

Legally, one should carry the green card at all times. Think of it as a driver's liscene. You're supposed to carry it with you, but chances are you won't need it every (or maybe once or twice). But if you are caught without it, the situation may not be pleasant. The officer may by sympathetic to the "I left it at home" and let you off with a warning not to do so in the future, or you may be subject to legal action (i.e. fine, arrest if there's an accident). Will carrying a photocopy of the card do? Maybe. But you won't know for sure until the situation arises when you need it, and then you may encounter a rigid immigration offcier with an axe to grind. It happens!

I agree with gb11, it's a matter of risk tolerance. I still haven't received the card physically, so I'm not sure what I'll do. Right now I have a copy of my passport with the stamp.

Also, I think we should never ever volunteer the card where a driver's liscence will do. Even if you do have it, question why the said official asks you for it. Opimions anyone?

rgds,
sadiq