AC21 Usage Job Title/Description

I

iwannagreencard

Registered Users (C)
Hello Everyone,
Its been a long time away from the group. This group is the best source of immigration information that one can have.

I have been offered a good position with-in a Large corporation. Please refer to my signature for the GC details.

They have agreed to the Original Job description with minor additions to the new technologies that i will be working. The original Job description will remain the same.

The Job title is where i think its an issue.
My LC was approved as Programmer Analyst. The new position i will be taking is a Sr. Software Engineer.

My LCA was using the code 030162014

The position i am getting is using the code :030062010

DOT Codes
030062010 Software Engineer
030162014 Programmer-Analyst

As per the O*NET website: Programmer Analyst could be part of the following Codes:
15-1031.00 & 15-1032.00(has both Programmer Analyst & Software Engineer)
15-1051.00( has only Programmer Analyst but not Software Engineer)
15-1021.00( has only Programmer Analyst but not Software Engineer)
15-1061.00 ( has only Programmer Analyst but not Software Engineer)

Is that an ISSUE???

Also, is there an issue with Software Engineer Vs Sr. Software Engineer


Please share your thoughts and if there is any way to verify that these are ok. As per the prospective employers Attorneys, the title should not be of an issue as long as the job duties are same(which i am positive will remain same).
 
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You might be OK as long as you can get a letter from your new company proving that you're working on similar tasks/expertise as old one.
 
I do not know, why IT folks are so concerned about same/similar code. One should have a confidence that they are porting the job which is similar to the previous one. You should judge your self. If first 3 to 4 digits of DOT/SOC code similar then it should be ok..

All they want to see is that you are porting to same or similar occupation. No job title or position in that occupation does not matter. The problem occures only when a "programmer" ports the job to "real estate agent".
 
Thanks Gc_puli for sharing your thought. Thats a very good point which i never realised that people do change job to non-IT sectors as well.

But as we all know INS is totally unpredictable & anything/everything is possible.

In one of the conference call with the attorneys today, they stressed that changing job titles has to be analyzed on a case by case basis.

For example a programmer Analyst cannot take the position of Team Leader although his job duties may be the same. It becomes difficult to argue over the case.

During the discussion, I came to know that if the job description has key words like "Desgin" then changing to Sr.Software Engineer from Programmer Analyst is of low risk.


Thanks again for sharing your thought. Let me know if you have any other suggestions.
 
People should go with confidence in AC21. The purpose of AC21 is for "job flexibility". We have not seen any case that was denied just for the new job is not "same" or "similar" occupation. I think USCIS is little flexible on this. Even if you send a AC21 letter, I doubt they will read it. There was a only one case that we have seen, related to AC21. The final verdict yesterday was in favor of alien. What they are trying to see is if you are an electrical engineer, it is ok to port your job to electronics engineer. Every one knows it is a related or similar occupation. If electrical engineer ports to a teacher occupation, then it is certainly not a similar job.

Most lawyers are so conservative on this issue.

In my case, my labor was approvd in a very specialized engineering catagory (Non-IT) as per DOT. There are very few jobs in my catagory in USA. This catagory was removed in O.Net. My earlier approved DOT catagory become a part of one of the major engineering catagory as per O.NET. DOL is no longer using DOT. They are using only O.NET. I used AC21, as I got a new job which falls under major engineering catagory. I am confident that my new and old job has same occupational class is as per O.NET, but very close to each other as per DOT. I did not even consult any lawyer.

If you have doubt, type a old occupation code in O.Net, it lists number of related occupation. If your new job is one of them, then you will be 100% OK. Even if they deny your 485 on this ground, if you send the print of O.NET, they will approve it.

There is a good news for who are using AC21. From OH law firm web site ..

02/23/2007: Great Victory for EB-485 180-day Ported Aliens While in Immigration Court Removal Proceeding

On October 28, 2005, the Board of Immigration Appeals held that Immigration Judge did not have jurisdiction to determine whether the employment-based I-485 applicants who had changed employment had met the AC 21 portability threshold and thus the Immigration Judge did not have jusriction to consider the legal status of the employment-based 485 applicants in the removal proceeding based on the AC 21 portability law. See, In re Perez Vargas, 23 I&D Dec . 829 (BIA 2005), Interim Decision #3519, October 28, 2005. This BIA decision presented a challenging issue for those EB-485 applicants who had to seek I-485 approval not from the USCIS but from the Immigration Judge because of their minor violation of immigration law or status and being placed under the removal proceeding.
The AILF, the litigation arm of the AILA, brought a suit against the decision in the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit, Perez-Vargas v. Gonzales, No. 05-2313, and won big in the lawsuit yesterday as the U.S. Court of Appeals reversed the BIA decision and ruled that the Immigration Judge had a jurisdiction to determine the AC 21 485 portability issue. We wish to send a big hats-off to the AILF for the job well done on behalf of the employment-based immigrant community.
 
Gc_puli, why do you think changing jobs from engineering to teaching (academics) does not satisfy the similarity criteria? I am curious since thats exactly what I am planning to do in the next few months - switching from from Asst Prof to an industry job.
 
immipassion said:
Gc_puli, why do you think changing jobs from engineering to teaching (academics) does not satisfy the similarity criteria? I am curious since thats exactly what I am planning to do in the next few months - switching from from Asst Prof to an industry job.
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Because USCIS refers O.NET and/or DOT to arrived at your old and new jobs are same or similar classficition. I doubt engineering and teaching jobs have similar codes or classification. In broad sense, they should consider this change, because engineering professor can go to industry and work as an engineer. If they deny, it may be litigated and you may prove that both are similar jobs. I do not exactly know how uscis see this change. They may be liberal or not. If o.net/dot code numbers are close to each other, you have much leverage. You can discuss with qualified attorney, I still doubt thay may provide strong answer, though.
 
Thanks Gc_puli once again for coming back and sharing your views.
I completely agree with what you said :
"People should go with confidence in AC21". I am trying to do the same thing by verifying/gathering information that will make sure that what i am doing is right. One is generally confident if he knows what he is doing is right. Thanks.

I am confused/amazed to know that INS use O*Net code and not the DOR/SOC code. How do you know that? Any link will be helpful.

If we refer to Ates memo(2005) to determine whether the job is same/similar, its clearly says about DOT/SOC and no one talks about O*Net.
Ignore my Ignorance if there is something else which has superseeded to this Memo.

To Answer your suggestion:
If you have doubt, type a old occupation code in O.Net, it lists number of related occupation. If your new job is one of them, then you will be 100% OK. Even if they deny your 485 on this ground, if you send the print of O.NET, they will approve it.
Click to expand...

As per the O*NET website: Programmer Analyst could be part of the following Codes:
15-1031.00 & 15-1032.00(has both Programmer Analyst & Software Engineer)
15-1051.00( has only Programmer Analyst but not Software Engineer)
15-1021.00( has only Programmer Analyst but not Software Engineer)
15-1061.00 ( has only Programmer Analyst but not Software Engineer)

How do you convert the DOT/SOC codes to that of O*Net codes.

Thanks again for sharing your views.

gc_pulli: can you explain in layman terms what exactly the AC21 win is all about. I read it 3 times and still do not get the gist of it.
Is it like a case was held for remove processing, where they filed the suit and won the case saying that they cannot take that decision based on AC21.
I am lost. Thanks
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immipassion: I dont think it matters from where you are coming. As per my understanding, as long as the job description and job title is related to that of LCA, it should be ok. Again not denying what gc_pulli has said, i personally feel that its a case to case analysis. hope this helps.
 
Mine is EB1-OR petition, so there was no LCA. Only place my job description is mentioned is on my employer's letter which obviously states both teaching and research in my field. SOC code on my 140 form is 25-1032: Engineering Teachers, Postsecondary, which will definitely not be same as engineering codes (17-...).
 
As per Ates Memo:
When making a determination if the new employment is the “same or similar” occupational classification in comparison to the employment in the
initial I-140, adjudicators should consider the following factors:

A. Description of the job duties contained in the ETA 750A or the initial I-140 and the job duties of the new employment to determine if they are the “same or similar” occupational classification.

B. The DOT code and/or SOC code assigned to the initial I-140 employment for petitions that have a certified ETA 750A or consider what DOT and/or SOC code is appropriate for the position for an initial I-140 that did not require a certified ETA 750A. Then consider the DOT code and/or SOC code, whichever is appropriate for the new position to make a determination of “same or similar” occupational classification.

C. A substantial discrepancy between the previous and the new wage. (See Question 5 of this section for further clarification).


Now as "A" since there is no LCA i think it matter more of "job duties contained in the initial I-140". Its the B section which i am really not sure. I would definately speak with an attorney. Hope this helps.
 
hi iwannagreencard, yes i have hired an attorney who filed my petition and would be advising me on AC-21. she has told me to run any job offer by her to ascertain suitability, but given my past experience with her office i would rather remain abreast of issues myself. left to them, they would seek the safest possible way out, which is for me to remain in this job till past i have GC in hand :)
 
you mean she is good to adjust any possible case or just she is not good at all. I am confused.

Its always good to be educated and not to rely completely on anyone leave alone the lawyers as they are also humans and humans do errors.


I am still try to evaluate my situation that whether a Programmer Analyst can join Sr.Software Engineer or not?

Somebody can comment please....
 
neither, she is just capable for her own good:( her responses are often as ambiguous as USCIS's and her typical advise on any matter is - "if i were you i would not take any risk" or "we should look forward to receiving an RFE". to me it sounds like excuses to pass the burden... and her firm is supposed to be one of the top most firms in midwest! i mean, i had already discussed my case with her before signing the firm and if i was not going to take these risks i could have filed on my own! anyways, i guess i am just frustated with the entire process...
to answer your question, she has asked me to consult her for approval before accepting a job offer, as if I will have a few dozen choices while completely overhauling my career move! :D
 
immipassion said:
Mine is EB1-OR petition, so there was no LCA. Only place my job description is mentioned is on my employer's letter which obviously states both teaching and research in my field. SOC code on my 140 form is: Engineering Teachers, Postsecondary, which will definitely not be same as engineering codes (17-...).
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Where do one find soc code on 140 approval? i have my 140 approval infront of me but i dont see any such numbers here!!!
BTW i dont have my LC details with me. Is there any way i can get than without contacting my company. Lack of that detail is stopping me avail AC21 and switch from this employer. My employer do not give me my LC details.

My LC was filed as Prog Analyst but somehow got approved as DBA. My attorney told they corrected it later but how do i check it myself. I remember we used to send an email to IL DOL and get the details of our company approvals. Anybody know how to get those details now, that there are lot of change of names at DOl level. Appreciate very much for any help in this regard.
 
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immipassion said:
neither, she is just capable for her own good:( her responses are often as ambiguous as USCIS's and her typical advise on any matter is - "if i were you i would not take any risk" or "we should look forward to receiving an RFE". to me it sounds like excuses to pass the burden... and her firm is supposed to be one of the top most firms in midwest! i mean, i had already discussed my case with her before signing the firm and if i was not going to take these risks i could have filed on my own! anyways, i guess i am just frustated with the entire process...
to answer your question, she has asked me to consult her for approval before accepting a job offer, as if I will have a few dozen choices while completely overhauling my career move! :D
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It is true. Most famous lawyers are like that. No one commits anything and want to be 100% safe, and want to take very simple-stright forward cases. Some time I wonder, if our cases are so simple and stright forward then, why should we need a representation of popular lawyer?

Any way, in your (or any other's)cases the recent AC21 memo is the only available guideline in determining same or similar occupation. You should be your own judge. We yet to see approval/denial of many more AC21 cases, to discuss howmuch uscis liberal or strict in AC21 job, as most of the old 485s still pending due to retrogression, though peoples might have used AC21. :(
 
the criterion in is "occupational classification" not "job description"

I did some searching of available resources on AC21, and it seems to me the literal language reads "same or similar occupational classification." Personally, I feel this should not be confused with "same or similar job description or responsibilities," which is more narrow.

Also, per the Aytes memo dated Dec 27, 2005:

Question 3. What is “same or similar” occupational classification for purposes of I-140 portability?
Answer: When making a determination if the new employment is the “same or similar” occupational classification in comparison to the employment in the initial I-140, adjudicators should consider the following factors:
A. Description of the job duties contained in the ETA 750A or the initial I-140 and the job duties of the new employment to determine if they are the “same or similar” occupational classification.
B. The DOT code and/or SOC code assigned to the initial I-140 employment for petitions that have a certified ETA 750A or consider what DOT and/or SOC code is appropriate for the position for an initial I-140 that did not require a certified ETA 750A. Then consider the DOT code and/or SOC code, whichever is appropriate for the new position to make a determination of “same or similar” occupational classification.
C. A substantial discrepancy between the previous and the new wage. (See Question 5 of this section for further clarification).

Thus, the approach described is to determine same or similar classification not same or similar responsibilities or title. So if you are a programmer writing embedded operating systems code and your LC classification is Computer Scientist, and you are interested in a new job doing Physics programming for video games - and both jobs result in the same occupational classification [either as same or similar DOT code, or SOC/O*NET code] then application is portable, even if the job description looks different.

Gurus please shout me down if I am wrong.

I recently spoke to a lawyer, and he gave me anecdotal evidence of liberal interpretation. According to him, someone changed a job from a cell phone company and started teaching in the local community college, and was successful in porting his/her application. Lawyer said as long as you are working in same field, USCIS interpretation reasonably liberal.
 
HI Jsrni77,
I just send you a private message. Would you please pass me more information about this lawyer? I am in the industry, too and would like to go for my academia offer in August. I am so confused now because many people told me it is considered not the same job because the univeristy position involves teaching although the research requirement is more emphasis than teaching.
And most importantly, their SOC codes are totolly different.
Your message really really gives me hope!!
Your help for more details would be very very appreciated!!!
Thank you very much!!!!!
 
va_il said:
Where do one find soc code on 140 approval? i have my 140 approval infront of me but i dont see any such numbers here!!!
BTW i dont have my LC details with me. Is there any way i can get than without contacting my company. Lack of that detail is stopping me avail AC21 and switch from this employer. My employer do not give me my LC details.

My LC was filed as Prog Analyst but somehow got approved as DBA. My attorney told they corrected it later but how do i check it myself. I remember we used to send an email to IL DOL and get the details of our company approvals. Anybody know how to get those details now, that there are lot of change of names at DOl level. Appreciate very much for any help in this regard.
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va_il,
Did you get any information about how to find job description that was used in 140 filing? I am in the same situation and not getting any help from my company lawyer. How do I know what job description was used in the I-140 filing?

Thanks
 
my checkname is clear

My I140 Was Approved The I485 Still Pending More Than 180 Days, We Used A Infopass Three Days Ago, And The Officer Was Very Nice He Told Us That Our Background Are Good That's Mean We Passed The Checkname...!!!!!wow!!!!!..... Was Nice To Heard That News, Now Our Interview Has To Be No More Than Two Months, We Didn't Receive Nothing No Yet.. But We Want To Know....is There Are A Problems If We Show The New Job And We Can Use That Same Day For The Interview The Ac21 Portability? If We Do That... Do You Guys Think We Expouse To Wait More Longer For This Case.... Or May Be The Officer Will Accept The Ac21 And We Can Be Granted The Same Day Of The Interview? Or We Just Need To Leave Everything Same... But We Are Worry Because We Dont Have W-2 2006 For The Employer(petitioner) We Have Just For The New Job//// Do You Think That Can Affect Or Not?
Thanks A Lot For Your Help....because I Need To Clear My Confuse And I Need To Made A Good Decision/////i'm Pretty Close To Be Granted..help Me!!!! God Bless You
 
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