OCI general question
- Thread starter vishey68
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vishey68 said:
US Citizenship itself is not affected. It may have some impact on DOD security clearance procedures and consular protection because GOI calls it 'Dual Citizenship'.
vishey68 said:
Yes. At the end of the process. Usually you'll get it back within 2 weeks. Don't send your US passport when you apply for OCI. You send it later after your OCI is granted and documents received at Indian Embassy/CGI.
vishey68 said:
Some interesting reading regarding OCI and consular protection. Look under OCI and PIO sections.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_nationality_law
bengaltiger
Registered Users (C)
As far as I can see from this page of the US Embassy in Delhi, the OIC has no impact on our US citizenship as the American govt simply considers it a visa and not dual nationality. In which case I doubt if it affects your consular rights as an American in India.
http://newdelhi.usembassy.gov/acsdualnation.html
http://newdelhi.usembassy.gov/acsdualnation.html
While in India obey the Indian laws , that way the question of consular protection or services will not appear.
The Indian Law states that if the country (US in your case) does not recognise OCI as dual citizenship then you are entitled to consular protection should you need them.
However if it is looked as dual citizenship by the US then you lose your right to request consular protection.
For your information-the US considers this OCI only as a visa. So you are safe if you need consular protection.
And remember, whateever passport you have, while in India, if you look Indian you are Indian so obey the law and be safe.
The Indian Law states that if the country (US in your case) does not recognise OCI as dual citizenship then you are entitled to consular protection should you need them.
However if it is looked as dual citizenship by the US then you lose your right to request consular protection.
For your information-the US considers this OCI only as a visa. So you are safe if you need consular protection.
And remember, whateever passport you have, while in India, if you look Indian you are Indian so obey the law and be safe.
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canindo said:
I'm not talking about breaking the local law and hiding behind consular protection. I don't think consular protection is meant for that. This is about having access to US Embassy services in case of natural disasters or when you get into some trouble with anti-social elements where you are not at fault, like kidnappings and stuff.
canindo said:
Any reference to this?
My gripe with this whole thing is GOI calling it 'dual citizenship' and confusing everybody in the process when obviously its not. I would have been more than happy if they simply stated that they cannot offer dual citizenship due to limitations in Indian Constitution. Since the begining its been a deliberate attempt to mislead people about dual citizenship. After 5 years of deliberations and PBD hype they essentially decided to give PIO without FRO registration and call it dual citizenship. Why so much hoopla about nothing?
Why did I get if I don't like it, you ask? I don't know. May be I thought its the best visa I can get. One may never need consular protection in India but people should know what OCI really is and make informed decision.
Check the website www.indianembassy.org -it clears states that OCI and PIO are not dual citizenship.
The constitution of India does have its limitations in granting dual citizenship-and though I am an OCI myself, I understand India's position because providing security to 1.3 billion people is not easy at India's current budget.
But being proud of India's achievements, its tolerance , democracy and diversity, let me assure you that for all practical purposes, OCI does give you a dual citizenship type status.
Having an OCI will help you and your family as India is poised to become a supertiger in world economical stage. Even the US President believes this.
**Now to your question regarding consular protection or services-you can as a US citizen with OCI make use of the US embassy's services for natural disasters or bizare case of kidnappings or so-by the way where in India are you from or are going to?
The constitution of India does have its limitations in granting dual citizenship-and though I am an OCI myself, I understand India's position because providing security to 1.3 billion people is not easy at India's current budget.
But being proud of India's achievements, its tolerance , democracy and diversity, let me assure you that for all practical purposes, OCI does give you a dual citizenship type status.
Having an OCI will help you and your family as India is poised to become a supertiger in world economical stage. Even the US President believes this.
**Now to your question regarding consular protection or services-you can as a US citizen with OCI make use of the US embassy's services for natural disasters or bizare case of kidnappings or so-by the way where in India are you from or are going to?
canindo said:
You must have missed how many times PM and other govt officials referred to OCI as dual citizenship. There is a reason why foreign govts have trouble interpreting this.
canindo said:
Almost a dual citizenship is not a dual citizenship. A citizenship comes with constitutional rights and responsibilities towards a nation. OCI has neither. Its a visa, nothing more, nothing less.
canindo said:by the way where in India are you from or are going to?
Does it matter?
BTW, I'm proud of my Indian lineage too. That is why I want proper citizenship.
Jai Hind.
Triple Citizen
Registered Users (C)
I might stir up mixed reactions from you all on this subject. Some may even tell me that I should be the last person to comment on this subject. However I'll still relay my opinion.
In today's global and dynamic world, I think all countries opposed to dual citizenship need to revisit the issue, specially a country like India. People and goods are moving far more now then they ever did. India has a lot to offer to today's world, specially in the next 25 years. It is in India's best interest (my opinion, and opinion only) to allow its NRIs full dual citizenship. Indian authorities have to realise that a change of citizenship by its citizens does not emotionally drain "India" out of their system. In fact, I think it probably kicks it up a notch. Absense makes the heart fonder.
I consider myself lucky that I did not risk losing my Pakistani citizenship when I naturalised (twice). I'll be honest, I haven't used my Pakistani passport (except entering Pakistan) for ages, nor do I intend to, since it never helps in visa free travel as afforded by a Canadian or US passport. However keeping a valid green passport next to my two blue ones is more of an emotional issue. The feeling that I have the same rights and responsibilities as any other "exclusively Pakistani citizen", is soothing and satisfying. Pakistani authorities have not penalised me for taking up other citizenship(s), and I am grateful to them for that.
So being non-Indian, I still support 100% Harry2005's demand. I hope Indian authorities listen to him and others who want full citizenship
I hope I did not offend anyone. For the record:-
Dad born = Purani Dilli
Mom born = Jhansi
Dada born = Purani Dilli
Dadi born = Purani Dilli
Nana born = Agra
Nani born = Ahmedabad
You get the idea.............
I was made to wait 20 months for a visit visa to India as a Canadian citizen. However the wait was worth it. Had a wonderful time seeing my Dada's house in Daryah Ganj, Old Delhi. Hopefully I'll be allowed to visit India again!!!
In today's global and dynamic world, I think all countries opposed to dual citizenship need to revisit the issue, specially a country like India. People and goods are moving far more now then they ever did. India has a lot to offer to today's world, specially in the next 25 years. It is in India's best interest (my opinion, and opinion only) to allow its NRIs full dual citizenship. Indian authorities have to realise that a change of citizenship by its citizens does not emotionally drain "India" out of their system. In fact, I think it probably kicks it up a notch. Absense makes the heart fonder.
I consider myself lucky that I did not risk losing my Pakistani citizenship when I naturalised (twice). I'll be honest, I haven't used my Pakistani passport (except entering Pakistan) for ages, nor do I intend to, since it never helps in visa free travel as afforded by a Canadian or US passport. However keeping a valid green passport next to my two blue ones is more of an emotional issue. The feeling that I have the same rights and responsibilities as any other "exclusively Pakistani citizen", is soothing and satisfying. Pakistani authorities have not penalised me for taking up other citizenship(s), and I am grateful to them for that.
So being non-Indian, I still support 100% Harry2005's demand. I hope Indian authorities listen to him and others who want full citizenship
I hope I did not offend anyone. For the record:-
Dad born = Purani Dilli
Mom born = Jhansi
Dada born = Purani Dilli
Dadi born = Purani Dilli
Nana born = Agra
Nani born = Ahmedabad
You get the idea.............
I was made to wait 20 months for a visit visa to India as a Canadian citizen. However the wait was worth it. Had a wonderful time seeing my Dada's house in Daryah Ganj, Old Delhi. Hopefully I'll be allowed to visit India again!!!
harry2005 said:
bengaltiger
Registered Users (C)
As I said in another post, India can never offer dual citizenship to anyone as long as the political climate is still the same with our neighbours. There are millions of illegal immigrants from Pakistan, Bangladesh, China, Nepal, Tibet etc. within our borders and the situation is out of control. Offering dual citizenship to anyone poses a huge security risk to India. The sheer number of applications and the background checks required would take years. That's why it took 20 months for Mr. Ghori to get an Indian visa. Yes, Pakistan and Bangladesh offer dual citizenship. No non- Pakistanis or Bangladeshis are clamouring to become their citizens or posing a threat to them. Be happy with the PIO/OIC as it is the best you can get to dual citizenship at such short notice under the circumstances and apart from the right to vote and owning a plantation or two you are not missing much else. As for the emotional aspect, I don't need a little blue booklet to tell me that I am an Indian. It is written in every particle of my DNA.
Triple Citizen
Registered Users (C)
Not to take anything away from your post, as far as Pakistan is concerned, there are millions of Bangladeshis (mostly illegal) and Afghanis (came as refugees after the Soviet invasion and never returned) in Pakistan.
The above statement is a fact and not an attempt to dilute your post about India's national security at risk due to presence of illegal immigrants.
The above statement is a fact and not an attempt to dilute your post about India's national security at risk due to presence of illegal immigrants.
bengaltiger said:
bengaltiger
Registered Users (C)
Let's put it this way. The illegal immigrants you have in Pakistan whether from Bangladesh or Afghanistan are all muslims. India is not a muslim country and it does affect our political stability when the reverse immigration is primarily muslim.
Fountainhead
Registered Users (C)
I agree with Bengaltiger. When people come to India taking advantage of its leniency, some of them come with the express purpose of destabilizing it. It is a well known fact that insurgents try to make it into the country one way or another. So, India can not offer a complete citizenship.
Fountainhead said:
May be I'm naive and don't see obvious things. Let me ask a silly question. Why would a person who is there to destabilize need citizenship to carry out his mission? How can any illegal obtain citizenship unless the govt is blind (or corrupt)? How are you going to stop insurgents by not offering dual citizenship? Please explain how not offering dual citizenship secures our borders? And why you think people who are asking for dual citizenship are a threat to national security?
Fountainhead
Registered Users (C)
It is obvious that when you have dual citizenship, it is easy to escape accountability. With dual citizenship, people who want to sponsor/finance terrorist activities, have a better access to resources within the country and also it is easy for them to escape through the loopholes of dual citizenship.
Here is a counter question to harry- you asked why India does not give dual citizenship.
Why does the US-not give dual citizenship? (except for Israel ofcourse)
It is the richest and strongest country in the world.(don't look at what is happening in iraq though-you may not agree with this statement if you do-hee hee)
Giving dual citizenship does have security issues. India's security is more at risk-because our neighbors are so civilized that they prefer to be illegals in our motherland for whatever purpose.
So let us not adopt one standard for India and another for other countries.
**Please note OCI is all you need for now. Unless you want to work in the government and military.
Why does the US-not give dual citizenship? (except for Israel ofcourse)
It is the richest and strongest country in the world.(don't look at what is happening in iraq though-you may not agree with this statement if you do-hee hee)
Giving dual citizenship does have security issues. India's security is more at risk-because our neighbors are so civilized that they prefer to be illegals in our motherland for whatever purpose.
So let us not adopt one standard for India and another for other countries.
**Please note OCI is all you need for now. Unless you want to work in the government and military.
Triple Citizen
Registered Users (C)
Canindo,
The US has no issues with its citizens holding other citizenships. Just open up a US passport and you will clearly see a paragraph intended for US citizens holding other citizenships. The paragraph iterates that the US state department may only be able to provide limited help to a US citizen in the country of the "other" citizenship.
Below is the official view of the US state department.
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html
The US has no issues with its citizens holding other citizenships. Just open up a US passport and you will clearly see a paragraph intended for US citizens holding other citizenships. The paragraph iterates that the US state department may only be able to provide limited help to a US citizen in the country of the "other" citizenship.
Below is the official view of the US state department.
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html
canindo said:
" In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship.
Intent can be shown by the person's statements or conduct.The U.S. Government recognizes that dual nationality exists but does not encourage it as a matter of policy because of the problems it may cause."
This is what is qouted. Okay so if one takes another citizenship-how can one tell what is their intention.
So practically you are right-you can keep different nationalities while having a US passport but it is not encouraged. In my opinion all the legal hooplah and nice words boils down to one thing -it is not preffered to have dual nationality by the US also. Why for the same reason-security. Security does apply in different ways.
Anyone reads this english differently?
Intent can be shown by the person's statements or conduct.The U.S. Government recognizes that dual nationality exists but does not encourage it as a matter of policy because of the problems it may cause."
This is what is qouted. Okay so if one takes another citizenship-how can one tell what is their intention.
So practically you are right-you can keep different nationalities while having a US passport but it is not encouraged. In my opinion all the legal hooplah and nice words boils down to one thing -it is not preffered to have dual nationality by the US also. Why for the same reason-security. Security does apply in different ways.
Anyone reads this english differently?
Triple Citizen
Registered Users (C)
Canindo,
Your previous post put India and the US on the same footing as far as dual citizenship is concerned. My last post was meant to correct that only. One discourages (US) and the other disallows (India). Vast difference.
Regarding intention, the state department has the following view:-
The Department has a uniform administrative standard of evidence based on the premise that U.S. citizens intend to retain United States citizenship when they obtain naturalization in a foreign state, subscribe to routine declarations of allegiance to a foreign state, or accept non-policy level employment with a foreign government.
You can find this at:-
http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_778.html
Your previous post put India and the US on the same footing as far as dual citizenship is concerned. My last post was meant to correct that only. One discourages (US) and the other disallows (India). Vast difference.
Regarding intention, the state department has the following view:-
The Department has a uniform administrative standard of evidence based on the premise that U.S. citizens intend to retain United States citizenship when they obtain naturalization in a foreign state, subscribe to routine declarations of allegiance to a foreign state, or accept non-policy level employment with a foreign government.
canindo said:
You can find this at:-
http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_778.html
canindo said:
In the mood for some controversy, huh.
I don't know what made you make a blanket statement like 'US doesn't allow dual citizenship', but it's more complex than that. As of now, nothing short of voluntary renunciation would take it away from you, dual citizenship or otherwise (I may be making a blanket statement here myself, but what I'm saying is, it is extremely difficult to lose your US citizenship unless YOU want to give it up, specifically under normal dual citizenship situations) There were several Supremet Court rulings that sided with a citizen's right to dual citizenship. Read the following links:
http://www.richw.org/dualcit/cases.html#Afroyim
http://www.richw.org/dualcit/cases.html#Terrazas
http://www.richw.org/dualcit/cases.html#Schneider
http://www.richw.org/dualcit/law.html#1978
http://www.richw.org/dualcit/law.html#1994
http://www.richw.org/dualcit/faq.html#noway
I'll post the actual court rulings text when I get some time.
As I mentioned in another thread, if India adopts a policy and says they cannot offer dual citizenship for whatever reasons, I would accept that and move on. I respect the fact that a country needs to do what's good for the citizens, not expats. But what Indian govt has been doing for the past 6 years is to show utter contempt and dishonesty regarding this issue and stirring unnecessary emotions (among Indians and expats) in the process. I don't think they ever had the intention to offer dual citizenship in its true form.
Now, someone asked what's the big deal about dual citizenship when you have OCI. Its mostly for emotional and psychological reasons (atleast for me). Not to take a govt job away from another Indian or avoid paying surcharges at hotel or whatever. I don't want to just live there. I want to participate whenver I can. I want the right to join armed forces and defend if needed, right to vote, right to change things, I want constitutional guarantee to do all these things. After spending 10-15-20 years in India as an OCI, I don't want some right wing nutcase telling me or my kid that we are not Indians and we don't have a place there. Again, can I live there without doing all these things? Sure, but I don't want to (I'm sure someone will tell me to just renounce my US citizenship and take up Indian citizenship).
To be honest, Indian govt is making a mistake not offering dual citizenship. I agree its a complex issue with wide ranging implications (I never really understood the link between illegal immigrats and dual citizenship though). Just because it's complex doesn't mean you shelve it altogether. I truly believe India has more to gain by doing this.
Flame away
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