LondonBorn
Registered Users (C)
Sat down with my boss this pm and explained my predicament and how I felt, and he has agreed to fire me..............
Leaving job after passport stamped!
- Thread starter LondonBorn
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LondonBorn
Registered Users (C)
No Ventura County
What everybody posted here are purely guesses and guesses have no meaning. Every case is different and the logic for one case will not apply to logic for others. One may be OK even after changing the job immediately after stampping while the other may not be. So there is no point in guessing. The bottom line is - is there anybody out there (self - not it happened with my friend or relative and all) who changed the job immediately after stampping and got his/her GC revoked ? - I doubt it.
So you are saying that people shouldn't form opinions on how some rule is interpreted/implemented based on experiences of others ?FunnyWait said:
If that's the case, why have a forum ?
Why scan WAC# to see the approval trends ?
Why do anything ?
Am sorry -- if someone considers their case so uniquely different from everyone else, then they should know how to filter out the information being discussed here and take what's applicable to them ( if at all )
Max2k1 - Nope I am not saying that. What I am saying is - every case is different and I have not seen anybody facing problems becase they changed jobs right after stampping - and so the unwritten rule of staying with the employer for 6 o 12 months may not apply with everybody.
there is no written or unwritten rule regarding how long one should stay after getting green card. Real issue is "whether the employee and/or employer had intent to work together permanently". If you can show with preponderance of evidence that you did not form the intent to quit until after you got the greeen card (or the quit was involuntary.. such as layoff) you are ok. On the same line if you quit after one year but leave a trail of evidence showing that you formed the intent to quit before you got the green card you may be in trouble. Proving /disproving intent is very complicated because no one knows what goes on in someone's mind. Therefore, circumstancial evidence are used to prove/disprove intent. Working 6 months or so with the employer virtual make it impossible (unless you leave trail of other evidence showing otherwise -- like shooting emails to everybody stating "once I get gc I am out of here" ) for USCIS to prove that you had formed intent to quit right after getting GC.
Of course, there are no case that I know where USCIS went after someone .... but don't assume this will not happen. Nobody used to file AR-11 until after 9/11 even though the law required that (since 60's or something). Before 9/11 USCIS never went after anyone, but last year they deported a guy charging him (among other things) not filing AR-11.
They caught a Pakistani guy taking pictures of some building, FBI cought him. Turned out an innocent guy but they started digging his history and found that he once signed a lease of apartment with an illegal alien. One thing led to another and this poor guy was deported last month.
Basically what you are saying is this - "hey I have seen many people shoplifting they are never caught... so its ok to shoplift".
Of course, there are no case that I know where USCIS went after someone .... but don't assume this will not happen. Nobody used to file AR-11 until after 9/11 even though the law required that (since 60's or something). Before 9/11 USCIS never went after anyone, but last year they deported a guy charging him (among other things) not filing AR-11.
They caught a Pakistani guy taking pictures of some building, FBI cought him. Turned out an innocent guy but they started digging his history and found that he once signed a lease of apartment with an illegal alien. One thing led to another and this poor guy was deported last month.
Basically what you are saying is this - "hey I have seen many people shoplifting they are never caught... so its ok to shoplift".
FunnyWait said:
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goodsaint - You are comparing apples with oranges. Shoplifting is a crime whereas changing job after stampping is not. So you can't really compare both these examples. What I want to stress is this - is there anyone out there who was in the same situation and faced any problems ? So I am not saying it's OK to change the job immediately after stampping but it's really a case by case decision and 6 to 12 months of logic may not apply to everybody. I just want to reiterate that this logic can not be blindly applied to every case.
In addition, this is an imaginary fear based on all the hypothetical cases, that a person changing job immediately after stampping is going to get into trouble. We should not use forums to create and spread such imaginary fears. Let the people with real experiences come forward so that we will all learn from them or let INS give their verdict on this issue. Until then its your guess vs mine and guesses have no meaning. The bottom line - don't give advice of 6 to 12 months if you are not sure and have not heard of any such examples. This unnecessarily creates confusion.
In addition, this is an imaginary fear based on all the hypothetical cases, that a person changing job immediately after stampping is going to get into trouble. We should not use forums to create and spread such imaginary fears. Let the people with real experiences come forward so that we will all learn from them or let INS give their verdict on this issue. Until then its your guess vs mine and guesses have no meaning. The bottom line - don't give advice of 6 to 12 months if you are not sure and have not heard of any such examples. This unnecessarily creates confusion.
How many do you know who changed job immediately after getting GC and how many of them applied for citizenship? Remember, when it comes to immigration law you are guity until proven innocent. So burden of proof is yours. When you quit immiediately after GC, it's not impossible, but difficult to prove that you did not think of changing employer before getting GC.FunnyWait said:
BTW, the line "I have not seen anybody" remind me the funny joke:
On our grandmother's 103rd birthday we had a party. We all wished her and told that we would like to have birthday party on 104th birthday too. Grandmother replied "Statistics shows there are very few people died between 103rd and 104th birthday. So, I will be around.".
FunnyWait said:
It's not crime, but if you intended to change employer even before getting GC, it's called immigration fraud.
FunnyWait said:
First of all most of forum members are mostly visa holder, GC applicants. Very few people are are on the stage of applying citizenship. So you cannot draw conclusion based on the experiences of forum members.
FunnyWait said:
Nobody tried to spread imiginary fear here. Read all the posting carefully. Everybody mentioned that 3-6 months is a thumb rule. Forum is for sharing knowledge. If knowledge creates your fear, don't come to forum.
BTW, having fear after gathering all the info/knowledge is healthy fear, and most of the times in life it works for good. Having fear being ignorant is not.
FunnyWait said:
Talk to your lawyer. Go to http://www.murthy.com. You will find enough info about this issue. That's the way most of the forums members got the idea about 6-12 months or 3-6 months thumb rule. It's not totally baseless or meaningless. Now, it's possible that in USCIS internal guidelines there is NO ground for that kind of thumb rule. But when it comes to immigration, you don't get many chances for experiment. Either your are approved or you are denied. Caution is required.
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> Sat down with my boss this pm and explained my predicament
> and how I felt, and he has agreed to fire me..............
Seldom heard about someone so happy about getting fired...
You should be fine then.
(Iwonder whether the company could get into trouble when they try to sponsor someone else. After all they fired you a week after you got your GC. Does the INS wonder whether the company had a 'permanent' job for you in the first place ? But, as the company doesn't have to go for any interviews it is probably a non-issue, just a thought.)
Congrats to your GC.
> and how I felt, and he has agreed to fire me..............
Seldom heard about someone so happy about getting fired...
You should be fine then.
(Iwonder whether the company could get into trouble when they try to sponsor someone else. After all they fired you a week after you got your GC. Does the INS wonder whether the company had a 'permanent' job for you in the first place ? But, as the company doesn't have to go for any interviews it is probably a non-issue, just a thought.)
Congrats to your GC.
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hadron said:
From the above link at murthy.com, it says:
"the employer must have a good-faith intention to employ the employee after the green card is approved"
So it's possible that the employer will be under scrutiny, because fraud (no offence) is commited from both ends. But how does USCIS pursue this kind of issue? I have no idea.
> So it's possible that the employer will be under scrutiny, because fraud
I just threw that out there.
There are only two reasons why the service should deal with the issue in the first place.
A. if the company gets ticked off and starts bugging INS.
B. during a citizenship interview
Now, if you get fired you are fine for B. and if the company fires you they don't have a case for A.
So, I think it is a non-issue in the 'getting fired' scenario.
I just threw that out there.
There are only two reasons why the service should deal with the issue in the first place.
A. if the company gets ticked off and starts bugging INS.
B. during a citizenship interview
Now, if you get fired you are fine for B. and if the company fires you they don't have a case for A.
So, I think it is a non-issue in the 'getting fired' scenario.
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Where did you get this idea that "Immigraion fraud" is not a criminal offense.
If you are still stick to this 6-12 months things I can tell you, you did not read my post carefully. Try to be a good reader, you will benefit from it.
If you are still stick to this 6-12 months things I can tell you, you did not read my post carefully. Try to be a good reader, you will benefit from it.
FunnyWait said:
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Immigration Law, System, People and Dealing with Reality.
I can imagine how many of potential immigrants are thinking of leaving their sponsoring employers as soon as they get their passport stamped. Knowing that employees will not quit, many sponsoring employers have taken advantage of employees stuck in the whole immigration process. Because the process is so long, the sponsoring employers abuse the employees and in turn employees eventually change their real intent to work for the sponsoring employees. But under the law, to change the intent becomes fraud. To punish people for what they think after abuses seems to be bad law, but that is where the law is and must be dealt. In family sponsored immigration, there is an exception for spousal abuse cases, but none for employer abuses. So the employees pretend they have that intent and endure the pains of working for abusive sponsoring employees. After all, no one can read a person’s mind except maybe God.
Once the employees undergo their ordeal and GC is obtained, their thirst of divorce with their sponsoring employer is magnified. It seems odd that one can change your sponsoring employer during adjustment under the 180-day portability rules, but nevertheless, can be considered fraudulent if you leave your current employers at the time of approval. This is because the law makes a fiction that your employer has not changed under the 180 days portability rule. It does not make common sense, but that is where the law is at and must be dealt.
The only way anybody can prove your intent is when you voluntary leave early. So the old INS probably established the enforcement guidelines which became known as a rule thumb of 6 months to 12 month. While every employee’s situation is case-by-case, but the immigration lawyers believe that the guidelines are 6 month to 12 months to trigger scrutiny.
In reality some employees continue to endure for bit more, waiting for that 6 month threshold or 12 month threshold. Many employees realize that they will get another scrutiny when they apply for citizenship and tough it out. For some, the past abuse may be too unbearable and may leave in a month taking the risk being scrutinized.
Some smart employees may have sponsoring employees fire them by being subtlety bad employees. If your too bad, your employee gets ticked off and may bug the USCIS. You want that amicable divorce. As long as the employers fire you amicably there is no evidence. After all, no one can read a person’s mind except maybe God and its all about evidence.
In conclusion, bad immigration law sometimes makes the most honest people criminals punishing people for natural basic desire to have better life. The current immigration law cannot deal with the change of situation and circumstances of employee-employer relationship. The long process by USCIS has exacerbated the problem. The law can be simply changed to have intent be reviewed at the point the labor certification or immigration process was commenced to fit to reality, but there many anti-immigrants in the U.S., and this will not happen soon.
I can imagine how many of potential immigrants are thinking of leaving their sponsoring employers as soon as they get their passport stamped. Knowing that employees will not quit, many sponsoring employers have taken advantage of employees stuck in the whole immigration process. Because the process is so long, the sponsoring employers abuse the employees and in turn employees eventually change their real intent to work for the sponsoring employees. But under the law, to change the intent becomes fraud. To punish people for what they think after abuses seems to be bad law, but that is where the law is and must be dealt. In family sponsored immigration, there is an exception for spousal abuse cases, but none for employer abuses. So the employees pretend they have that intent and endure the pains of working for abusive sponsoring employees. After all, no one can read a person’s mind except maybe God.
Once the employees undergo their ordeal and GC is obtained, their thirst of divorce with their sponsoring employer is magnified. It seems odd that one can change your sponsoring employer during adjustment under the 180-day portability rules, but nevertheless, can be considered fraudulent if you leave your current employers at the time of approval. This is because the law makes a fiction that your employer has not changed under the 180 days portability rule. It does not make common sense, but that is where the law is at and must be dealt.
The only way anybody can prove your intent is when you voluntary leave early. So the old INS probably established the enforcement guidelines which became known as a rule thumb of 6 months to 12 month. While every employee’s situation is case-by-case, but the immigration lawyers believe that the guidelines are 6 month to 12 months to trigger scrutiny.
In reality some employees continue to endure for bit more, waiting for that 6 month threshold or 12 month threshold. Many employees realize that they will get another scrutiny when they apply for citizenship and tough it out. For some, the past abuse may be too unbearable and may leave in a month taking the risk being scrutinized.
Some smart employees may have sponsoring employees fire them by being subtlety bad employees. If your too bad, your employee gets ticked off and may bug the USCIS. You want that amicable divorce. As long as the employers fire you amicably there is no evidence. After all, no one can read a person’s mind except maybe God and its all about evidence.
In conclusion, bad immigration law sometimes makes the most honest people criminals punishing people for natural basic desire to have better life. The current immigration law cannot deal with the change of situation and circumstances of employee-employer relationship. The long process by USCIS has exacerbated the problem. The law can be simply changed to have intent be reviewed at the point the labor certification or immigration process was commenced to fit to reality, but there many anti-immigrants in the U.S., and this will not happen soon.
goodsaint said:
Theoritically not. If you are convicted in civil court (for example superior court in some states), that can be called criminal offence. The "immigration fraud" is something is that decided by immigration court - that never goes to any civil crime record - local or FBI.
But sometimes immigration fraud has far reaching affect compare to regular cirminal offence. If are convicted for druken driving, shop-lifting or domestic violence probably you will still get a break, but if you are convicted for immigration fraud, you can forget your GC/citizenship for your lifetime - even in future.
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Dose NIW-based approval also need to keep >= 6 months?
My friend has NIW case approved and would leave his current employer soon (switch to a totally different area -- nothing to do with the NIW petition area, or study for a MBA) since the current position pays too low. Dose he need to keep with his current employer for at least 6 months after GC approval? By the way, his case is self-petition and his employer only provided employment letter and 2 recommendation letters. Your suggestions are highly appreciated!
My friend has NIW case approved and would leave his current employer soon (switch to a totally different area -- nothing to do with the NIW petition area, or study for a MBA) since the current position pays too low. Dose he need to keep with his current employer for at least 6 months after GC approval? By the way, his case is self-petition and his employer only provided employment letter and 2 recommendation letters. Your suggestions are highly appreciated!
vz02128 said:
My lawyer made similar comments, that AC21 could be applied to the approval, not just before while it's pending. So, I'm switching jobs, I had planned the switch long before I was approved and I was going to use AC21, and then I was approved, but I can't stop the process now -- and of course I want to go... so I'm going to take the chance that it'll work out. I figure I put in a good 4.5 years with the previous employer, and that this new job is similar in nature (although more harmonious as a work environment) and I am going to sort of document the similiarities for future reference.
becky