Feeling stressed: TN-1 denied, applying as Engineer (with B.Sc) now

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deropolo

New Member
Hey,

I'm a Canadian Software Engineer that is looking to relocate to the US to work as a Software Engineer. I have a Bachelors of Science, with a Specialization in Computer Science.

I went to apply for my TN-1 visa yesterday as a Computer Systems Analyst, got denied because I stated that my job would involve programming when they asked, and the officer told me programmer is not part of their interpretation of the role for CSA and is a different position that is not under NAFTA stuff. I was completely unaware that programming was something I should've avoided as a CSA.

So my immigration lawyer decided it would be best to apply again as an Engineer, since they have a sworn statement that I will be programming. But this could be troublesome since I have a Bachelors of Science, specialization in Computer Science instead of an engineering degree.

Now I'm honestly feeling really stressed...I guess it's all up to the lawyer to rework the application to show that the position matches the NAFTA interpretation of Engineer, and that my degree is relevant and I'm qualified to perform that work with my degree, etc.

Has anyone had experience with applying as an Engineer without an engineering degree? Were you able to successfully obtain your TN? Anything you ran into that helped you? Is it just a toss up depending on the officer?

Also, the officer allowed me to withdraw my application (gave me a I-275 and I-877). Does this count negatively towards subsequent applications?

Thanks!
 
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Yeah, you aren't an engineer, and the position is not an engineering position (nor CSA), so I don't see how "faking" your job description will fly, since not only are you arbitrarily changing the description, you are making it for a category you aren't eligible for. CBP isn't that blind.

You weren't denied entry, you were simply found to have a deficiency in your petition. Trying what your lawyer is saying you should, could get you banned.
 
I see, in that case, I was thinking about reapplying as a CSA with the correct titles and everything. But my lawyer is hesitant with this option since they might look back on the previous attempt and see my previous answer of programming being involved. Since I wasn't denied entry, would they in fact check my attempt yesterday?
 
Yes, they are going to look back anyways, and see that you are faking the job description. Be very careful, because you are taking a big risk for an attempt that is going tp fail anyway.
 
So you're saying my job (without know who it's for, what the responsibilities are, what the role entails, etc.) is inadmissible under both CSA and Engineer, CS graduates are not engineers, and that's it then?
 
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"Bachelors of Science, with a Specialization in Computer Science." this is not engineering degree, how is it gonna help you apply the engineer category?
 
@deropolo
You described your job to the agent, and he said it was ineligible. It is not an engineering position, otherwise your lawyer would have gone with that first, plus you are not an engineer.

If your job was indeed a qualified CSA job, then you goofed up by mentioning programming, which your lawyer should have made clear yo you beforehand. Had you asked here first, this would have been pointed out to you, as that is basic TN 101.

Lesson learned, perhaps the next offer you get will be handled better.
 
UPDATE: I got my TN this morning from Peace Bridge as an Engineer with a Computer Science degree.

For those in a similar position, this is what worked for me. Listen to your lawyer. I cannot guarantee it will work for you as well, it is definitely still an uphill battle, and it is ultimately up to the officer, but these are the things I did to maximize my chances:

Prepare your argument for why an engineering degree is not required for the Engineer classification (because it's not):

- USMCA does not specify a specific degree for the Engineer classification, baccalaureate or licenciatura or state/provincial license is sufficient.
- Cronin (2000) memo that advises that the degree should be in a closely related field. More info here: usvisahelp.com/newswire/?action=viewArticle&articleId=22
- Your lawyer should be able to provide the exact sections and quotes and documents for this. (i.e. USCMA Chapter 16 Appendix 2, etc.)

Prepare your argument for why your education qualifies you (why a Computer Science degree is sufficient for a Software Engineer position)

- Department of Labor’s O*NET manual lists “Software Engineer” as an alternate title for “Software Developer.”
- Department of Labor’s Occupational Outlook Handbook lists Software Developers usually have a bachelor's degree in CS, thus, it is a directly relevant degree
- Bring your official transcript. Ideally you should have a significant computer science/software engineering component in your CS degree. Highlight this. Bring your official degree as well.
- If your workplace can provide additional documentation supporting that most/all of their Software Engineers have a Computer Science or Software Engineering degree, that is helpful too.

Feel free to reply or DM if you have any questions.
 
Very happy I did not listen to Nelson, he is grossly misinformed or intentionally misleading, as I am not the first person
(forums.immigration.com/threads/tn-visa-company-lawyer-is-suggesting-to-apply-as-an-engineer-but-i-only-have-a-cs-minor.344308/),
nor last person (reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/7jdl0k/tn_visa_for_software_engineering/dr6dmih/),
nor an exception (reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/brwzp4/tn_visa_for_software_engineer_and_computer/),
there's a bunch of people (teamblind.com/post/Applying-for-TN-visa-as-Engineer-with-BSc-CNmXQXDu),
even 6 years ago (reddit.com/r/immigration/comments/2ug8py/has_anyone_obtained_a_tn_visa_as_a_software/),
and more recently (reddit.com/r/tnvisa/comments/nicjw8/getting_the_tn_visa_as_a_software_engineer/gz3o70n/).

The following quotes from him are grossly incorrect. Do better.

nelsona said:
It is not an engineering position, otherwise your lawyer would have gone with that first, plus you are not an engineer.

[...]

Lesson learned, perhaps the next offer you get will be handled better.
Click to expand...

nelsona said:
CS is not engineering, even if you had a degree in CS.

All non-engineers who apply under engineering are denied.
Click to expand...
 
deropolo said:
UPDATE: I got my TN this morning from Peace Bridge as an Engineer with a Computer Science degree.

For those in a similar position, this is what worked for me. Listen to your lawyer. I cannot guarantee it will work for you as well, it is definitely still an uphill battle, and it is ultimately up to the officer, but these are the things I did to maximize my chances:

Prepare your argument for why an engineering degree is not required for the Engineer classification (because it's not):

- USMCA does not specify a specific degree for the Engineer classification, baccalaureate or licenciatura or state/provincial license is sufficient.
- Cronin (2000) memo that advises that the degree should be in a closely related field. More info here: usvisahelp.com/newswire/?action=viewArticle&articleId=22
- Your lawyer should be able to provide the exact sections and quotes and documents for this. (i.e. USCMA Chapter 16 Appendix 2, etc.)

Prepare your argument for why your education qualifies you (why a Computer Science degree is sufficient for a Software Engineer position)

- Department of Labor’s O*NET manual lists “Software Engineer” as an alternate title for “Software Developer.”
- Department of Labor’s Occupational Outlook Handbook lists Software Developers usually have a bachelor's degree in CS, thus, it is a directly relevant degree
- Bring your official transcript. Ideally you should have a significant computer science/software engineering component in your CS degree. Highlight this. Bring your official degree as well.
- If your workplace can provide additional documentation supporting that most/all of their Software Engineers have a Computer Science or Software Engineering degree, that is helpful too.

Feel free to reply or DM if you have any questions.
Click to expand...
Are you subject to quarantine requirements now?
 
Do remember that success one time does not guarantee success the next. newbies such as yourselves think your experience is primary. It isn't. There are dozens more experiences on this forum and others that contradict yours, as well as many cases of denials three years down the road.
 
nelsona said:
Do remember that success one time does not guarantee success the next. newbies such as yourselves think your experience is primary. It isn't. There are dozens more experiences on this forum and others that contradict yours, as well as many cases of denials three years down the road.
Click to expand...

I completely agree. Hence my disclaimers throughout my post. But to flat out state "CS is not engineering, even if you had a degree in CS. All non-engineers who apply under engineering are denied." is blatantly incorrect.
 
Yes, that is true. I apologize for my overstating my position. Apparently, Software Engineering is the same as CSA, in the eyes of CBP officers.
 
It is not official policy that the Engineer classification under NAFTA absolutely requires an engineering degree. The CBP policy memos state that "the degree should be in the field or in a closely related field". Some officers interpret this to allow a CS degree, while others do not.
 
deropolo before you are too hard on Nelsona, please be aware aware he contributes more to the TN status forum than any other member. we are all volunteers who spend our time responding and giving free advice to those who post questions. I have been monitoring and contributing to this forum for about 5 years and found it very helpful. I have learned a lot over the years from Nelsona and appreciate his contributions.
I agree with Nelsona that there are many posts where people were rejected for Engineering position without an engineer degree.

Just be aware that every time you enter the USA you will request entry on TN status and the CBP agent has the authority to review you and your credentials. It is extremely rare, but technically possible, that a different CBP agent could find your case not acceptable for TN status.

When I have entered the USA on TN status the typical questions are who do you work for, what do you do, what type of engineer are you, etc. Usually less than one minute and am allowed to proceed. But they could call you into secondary inspection and grill you.
 
Absolutely, I apologize if I come across harshly. I just understand that for others, it could be a very stressful and anxious time after being denied, and if their situation is similar to mine, I'm hoping I could help them (with ample disclaimers) because I was in that position. Maybe give them some direction or base to consider. To read blatantly incorrect information across multiple threads, especially one suggesting to give up and go to the next offer, doesn't sit right with me and is not helpful for readers in this situation. I am glad he's willing to go back on his previous statements, and I'm sure he will continue to contribute helpful information for others.
 
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