Driving License renewal ONE year only

Hi

It appears that for all non USC driving licenses are only being renewed for one year

This is such a waste of time and costing a fortune

Apparentley they told my friend today the law has been changed, where can I view the new rules?
 
susan ward said:
Hi

It appears that for all non USC driving licenses are only being renewed for one year

This is such a waste of time and costing a fortune

Apparentley they told my friend today the law has been changed, where can I view the new rules?

I'm guesssing by your URL that you are in Florida? This information sounds highly suspicious. Immigrants (vs. non-immigrants) are provided the same driving documentation as USCs assuming they have appropriate documentation. Typically, an immigrants driving license will be issued for at least the validity of their documents or DMV expiration period (usually 5 years), whichever is shorter. I've not heard of or read anything to the contrary.

Indeed, the Florida DMV lays out the requirements for different applicant categories at:

http://www.hsmv.state.fl.us/ddl/faqkeys.html

NOTE: The only category of non-USC that gets a one-year driving license is a Canadian Citizen (with certain documentation). Canadian Citizens are afforded certain privileges within the the US; in Florida this is probably due to the number of 'snowbirds' who move to FL from Canada in the winter!

FWIW, I just had my CA driving license renewed for 5 years. I haven't shown them any documentation since I showed them an I-94 and SSN card back in 1993 (when I was on an O-1 visa). Now I have my GC and they have never seen it nor asked for it.
 
jadoo85 said:
I Live in SC, and here they issue License for only one year.

But, judging from your signature, you do not have your GC yet. Are you saying that once you are a permanent resident (LPR) they will only issue licenses annually? The original poster implied that the one year rule applied to ALL non-US Citizens, including Legal Permanent Residents (i.e., Green Card holders). That's the bit that sounded incorrect.

Also, in many states, they will issue licenses up to the validity of whatever USCIS documents you provide.
 
I meant to say that for non-immigrants they issue one year licenses in SC.




wik said:
But, judging from your signature, you do not have your GC yet. Are you saying that once you are a permanent resident (LPR) they will only issue licenses annually? The original poster implied that the one year rule applied to ALL non-US Citizens, including Legal Permanent Residents (i.e., Green Card holders). That's the bit that sounded incorrect.

Also, in many states, they will issue licenses up to the validity of whatever USCIS documents you provide.
 
Check your expiration date on your H1B. Here in PA they will only issue a DL up to the date of the expiration of your H1B (or H4 if you're a dependant). Once you renew your visa then you bring in the approval papers and you get a DL for as long as your visa is good. These days with the whole backlog and H1B renewals only valid for 1 year that might be the issue, but I am not possitive. It will be here in PA for my daughter when she renews hers.
 
check DMV web site and goggle REAL ID ACT

Two states issue DL, no legal status. Utah and Oregoan.But these are only for a yr and driving purposes not to fly or enter any federal building because of 9/11. Few states, you have to show atlist tax ID, those are WA, WI, MAIN, NH, NM AND MI.
 
President Bush will is GOD'S will. He signed Real Id Act, someone who introduced Gues

undefinedPresident Bush will is God's will , someone who introduced Guest worker program for immigrant and all of a sudden decided to kick them out from USA, what a contradiction.....
All immigrant specially those are citizens of USA have to speak up for their people, those are having a hard time, as they pay taxes and these taxes going to wrong places like IRAQ, AFGHANISTAN, PAKISTAN AND SOMALIA. President Bush don't care for those are here long time paying taxes, left family behind, can't visit family which is inhuman and now cuting their feet so they can't drive and work and support themselves or family, what a justice!

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This pledge's permanent location: www.pledgebank.com/NoNHREALID
This pledge is now closed, as its deadline has passed.
"I will reject a REAL-ID-compliant NH drivers license/National ID but only if 199 other NH residents or soon-to-be residents will vow to do the same."

— BikerBill, NH Freedom Fighter

Deadline to sign up by: 7th November 2006
44 people have signed up, 155 more needed

Country: United States

More details
On May 11, 2005, the Orwellian, unconstitutional, unfunded legislation known as the REAL-ID Act, having been snuck through the US Congress without any debate or public scrutiny, was signed into law by a President who believes he is above his country's laws because his decisions are "God's will."

On May 11, 2006, a day that will live in NH history as either the start of the revolution or the true beginning of death throes for liberty, sovereignty and representative government "of the people, by the people, and for the people" in NH (and coincidentally the same day the massive NSA phone records database story broke), the NH Senate decided to defiantly, arrogantly and repeatedly disregard the Constitutions of the US and NH, the NH House, Gov Lynch, the Concord Monitor, the Manchester Union Leader, its own study committee and its laughably lopsided testimony, as well as its rather vocal NH constituency, not to mention international press and organizations as disparate as the Cato Institute and the ACLU.

Rather, they chose illusory safety over essential liberty. For themselves and for you. They sold out their constituents, rejected HB1582, and embraced Federal unconstitutional authority in giddy anticipation of $3M in taxpayer-funded "sucker money."

They thus failed their duty, their oath, their citizens, their state, and their country. They are a true and bitter embarrassment to the Founding Fathers and the historic "Live Free or Die" culture of NH.

Let this message of jealously guarded liberty be sent to the NH Senate in no uncertain terms by their similarly defiant bosses (that's you) by Election Day, 2006.

More info:
http://GraniteStateID.org/
http://NHCASPIAN.org/
http://NHLiberty.org/
http://NHFree.com/
http://FreeStateProject.org/

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Details about the deceitful parliamentary tricks used to kill HB1582 are located at:
http://freestateblogs.net/realDeceit

The Senate floor debate about Real-ID (which has some extremely damning moments for many of the Senators) is at:
http://freestateblogs.net/1582senate

NH Rep. Neal Kurk's stirring, patriotic speech before the House is at:
http://freestateblogs.net/files/images/K...
Denis Goddard at 12:51, Mon 15 May 2006. Abusive? Report it!
I will not comply with "REAL ID" even if everyone else does.
Mike Ruff at 13:59, Mon 15 May 2006. Abusive? Report it!
I don't care if 200 people sign. I'm refusing REAL ID anyway!
Ian Bernard at 07:17, Tue 16 May 2006. Abusive? Report it!
I have already burned my SScard and had my Drivers License cut up by a Nazi at a National ID protest. I feel better already.
Russell Kanning at 13:14, Wed 24 May 2006. Abusive? Report it!
I don't live in NH, (live in MD) but if I did, I would refuse to comply. Many people would refuse to comply with National ID cards, but the problem is, fewer people are willing to resist driver's licenses. So, they put the National ID cards inside driver's licenses to get more people to comply. What an awful trick.
Nicholas Kirkpatrick at 16:33, Thu 6 July 2006. Abusive? Report it!
The Goverment Is Really Out Of Control!
Please Check Out My Website: http://james_tony.tripod.com/index.html
It is about the wrongful incarceration of my brother, of more than 13 years
and the details of false-charges brought against Tony Neal, in the Jackson County Circuit Court at Newport,
Arkansas.... December 10, 1992.
James F Neal at 22:52, Thu 21 September 2006. Abusive? Report it!

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Driving while undocumented---discrimination.

Discriminations
cogitations declarations contemplations inspirations conversations ruminations« "In A Perfect World ..." | Main | Professorial Punditry Worthy Of A Mainstream Pundit »

Driving While Undocumented
I'm convinced that one of the more powerful currents flowing into the rising tide of frustration and, increasingly, anger over illegal immigrants here is resentment produced by advocacy groups arguing that their rights are being violated. Most Americans would agree, I think, that being an illegal immigrant does not strip a person of all rights, but most would probably also agree that neither does simply being here confer all the legal and constitutional rights that citizens enjoy.

Over my coffee and bagel in Charlottesville this morning (the gastronomic explanation of this post) I happened to read three articles that highlighted arguments of unfair treatment of immigrants -- one in the Washington Post and two in the Charlottesville Daily Progress (though the latter's lousy online edition contained neither, and since thew were both Associated Press stories I cite them below from other sources).

In Maryland, according to this WaPo article, the number of people cited for driving without a license has risen 54% -- from19,878 citations in 2002 to 30,624 in the fiscal year that ended in June 2005.


[Del. Luiz R.S. Simmons (D-Montgomery)] released the findings as he prepares to introduce legislation that would make driving without a license an offense punishable by incarceration in Maryland. In the District [of Columbia] and Virginia, driving without a license can land a motorist in jail....

In Maryland, driving without a license carries a $315 fine but no threat of jail time, even for multiple offenses.

"You never even have to show up in court," Simmons said in an interview. "All you have to do is keep paying" the fine.


According to the article, federal immigration officials estimate that there are 56,000 illegal aliens in Maryland, and both law enforcement officials and immigrant advocates agree that the increase in undocumented driving is associated with the increasing numbers of undocumented workers.

... Gustavo Torres, executive director of Casa of Maryland, a Silver Spring-based immigrants' rights organization, said: "Even though Delegate Simmons says he is not targeting any group, it is very clear this is going to impact the immigrant community, Latinos and other immigrants."

Torres said he thinks illegal immigrants account for a significant part of the increase in unlicensed drivers in the state. "Regardless of whether they have driver's licenses, it is how people take their kids to school or go to work. That is the reality," Torres said.


Meanwhile, in Virginia, according to this article, Rep. Jack Reid (R-Henrico)

said he plans to introduce a measure that would deny in-state tuition to undocumented immigrants. "All across the state, there's a growing concern about the costs of the number of illegals that are here," Reid said.

This issue is being debated across the country,not just in Virginia, and those who oppose bills like Rep. Reid's often speak in terms of rights. Thus Florida state senator Frederica Wilson (D-Miami) has been introducing bills for four years that would provide in-state tuition for undocumented Florida high school graduates.

"These children are being penalized. It's no fault of theirs that they're not citizens," she said. Many were brought to the United States by their parents when they were as young as five or six, and worked hard for years in U.S. public schools.

"I think we owe them. They have a right. They want to be somebody. It's reminiscent of many civil rights battles that I as an African American had to fight," Wilson said.


It is certainly no fault of these children that they are not legal, but I'm not at all sure that means we owe them or that they have a "right" to in-state tuition that is denied to legal residents of other states, and I am especially not sure that any right is implicated here that can reasonably be compared to the right to be free from racial discrimination. (Especially squared, since I would be willing to bet that Sen. Wilson no longer opposes distributing benefits and burdens based on race.)

Also in Virginia, Manassas Ordinance Raises Cries of Bigotry.


The ordinance, adopted by the city Dec. 5 and modeled on one in Herndon, changed a definition of "family" in the zoning code so that, essentially, households are restricted to immediate relatives, even when the total is below the occupancy limit. With a few exceptions, aunts, uncles, nieces, nephews and other extended relatives do not count as family in Manassas anymore. For instance, six cousins living in a six-bedroom house would be illegal, even though the number does not exceed the occupancy limit.

City officials said in statement Thursday that the ordinance was aimed at combating crowding.

"The City views residential zoning regulations as a covenant with citizens who purchase property in the community, and our actions honor this commitment," the statement said. "The suggestion that changes in the zoning ordinance reflect any other intent on the part of City government are absolutely false."


Whatever the intent behind the new ordinance, it is pretty clear that its impact falls primarily on immigrants. As an earlier article pointed out,

Although the city says the law was aimed narrowly at dealing with overcrowded housing, Vice Mayor Harry "Hal" Parrish said earlier this month that the law also was aimed at addressing illegal immigration and the problems the city associates with it -- including parking, garbage issues and tight school budgets.

"I know there's frustration out in the community from the people we talk to, our citizens, and largely they believe, as do I, that the federal government hasn't followed through with enforcing its [immigration] laws . . .," he said. "And we're trying our best to deal with it."


The ACLU is planning to file a suit, and Jonathan Turley, the George Washington University law professor who is a frequent talking head, was, for once, almost inarticulate:

"It's hard to describe how many parts of the U.S. Constitution this law actually violates . . . " said Jonathan Turley, a constitutional law professor at George Washington University. "It interferes with constitutional guarantees regarding contracts [to rent rooms], families, equal protection, even First Amendment issues like freedom of association. . . . It's hard to believe any attorney actually reviewed this law."

Whether this ordinance and other laws and regulations that have a disparate impact on recent immigrants (many of whom are illegal) will hold up in court is certainly unclear, but whatever the legality I suspect many Americans will see nothing unfair about, say, a law providing a jail sentence for driving without a license or a zoning ordinance to prevent overcrowding that have a disparate impact on illegals. Such measures, after all, would have a disparate impact on immigrants (legal or illegal) only if immigrants were disproportionately represented among those who drive while undocumented or overcrowd.

Posted by John Rosenberg on January 2, 2006 8:31 PM | Permalink
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Say What?
"Most Americans would agree, I think, that being an illegal immigrant does not strip a person of all rights, but most would probably also agree that neither does simply being here confer all the legal and constitutional rights that citizens enjoy."

Whats interesting is that not much of the bill of rights is limited to citizens. At least, if you follow the text, and not something else.

"The ordinance, adopted by the city Dec. 5 and modeled on one in Herndon, changed a definition of "family" in the zoning code so that, essentially, households are restricted to immediate relatives, even when the total is below the occupancy limit."

Thankfully, the courts have found that government can't quite tell us how to organize our home life like this.

"Whether this ordinance and other laws and regulations that have a disparate impact on recent immigrants (many of whom are illegal) will hold up in court is certainly unclear"

A pretty similar one was tossed awhile ago. Moore v. East Cleveland, 1977.

Posted by: actus | January 2, 2006 9:11 PM

According to the article, federal immigration officials estimate that there are 56,000 illegal aliens in Maryland, and both law enforcement officials and immigrant advocates agree that the increase in undocumented driving is associated with the increasing numbers of undocumented workers.

The use of the word undocumented in place of illegal is political correctness gone mad. Will we soon start reading about undocumented brain surgeons?

Posted by: Richard Nieporent | January 2, 2006 10:45 PM

A few years ago a local child was run over and killed by an illegal who did not know that you don't pass a stopped school bus. Her father was holding her hand and crossing her but he couldn't pull her out of the way in time. The driver had a daughter back home in Mexico and he was very torn up about it. Of course he didn't like being in prison charged with vehicular manslaughter or whatever, but he really didn't want to have killed a little girl.

I wish we would stop being so schizophrenic about this. Either regularize these people so they can learn the rules of the road and so forth, or round them up and deport them. It's crazy.

As a side-issue, I wonder when the term "citizen" came into use in this country. Brits aren't citizens, they're subjects. Would the writers of the Bill of Rights have used that term? Did they differentiate between "the people" and "citizens"? Did they control immigration? Don't think so.

Posted by: Laura | January 2, 2006 11:04 PM

I do believe that Constitution very clearly delineated between citizens and non-citizens, through the article that grants citizenship to anyone living in the US during the revolution or born on US soil. Those are the individuals enjoying the rights and priveleges of the United States Constitution. Clearly, all humans enjoy minimum human rights of treatment by government, so that when illegal immigrants are arrested they have to be treated with a certain dignity by law enforcement, but non-citizens are not entitled to the same level of priveleges that citizens would be.

Whether immigration should be freer or tighter controlled is a political question then, left to the US Congress in overall form (dealing with total legal limits and border control) and the individual states in specific form (dealing with enforcement of local laws).

Zoning family size to change immigrant residency patterns would be unconstitutional because family size zoning would illegally affect all citizens associational rights. The city there should simply have cracked down on illegal immigrants - except the federal government has been so inane on the issue. As to Jonathan Turley, it's hard to believe a Con. Law professor would say that there is a Constitutional law right to 1) "rent rooms" 2) "families", 3) that this has anything to do with "equal protection" (it appears to equally deprive everyone of associational rights, which is what he's right about, but his attempt to "pile on" was dumb):

"It interferes with constitutional guarantees regarding contracts [to rent rooms], families, equal protection, even First Amendment issues like freedom of association. . . . It's hard to believe any attorney actually reviewed this law."

Posted by: Chetly Zarko | January 3, 2006 1:18 AM

"I do believe that Constitution very clearly delineated between citizens and non-citizens, through the article that grants citizenship to anyone living in the US during the revolution or born on US soil. Those are the individuals enjoying the rights and priveleges of the United States Constitution."

It says the first thing, but not the second. But there are other things besides the text, of course.

Posted by: actus | January 3, 2006 7:15 AM

They can tell 1 how many pets they have, why not people?

What's density planning for, anyway?

Besides, it takes care of Latinos, and it takes care of terrorists.

Anyone remember 9/11 and the house in PA(?) w/12 living in it and someone was always in the car watching the street?

Posted by: Sandy P | January 3, 2006 11:45 AM

Wasn't the citizenship terminology put in for slaves?

Posted by: Sandy P | January 3, 2006 11:47 AM

John, re Manassas, if the problem is "crowding," then why don't they just change the f'in' occupancy limit? I read the long WaPo article on this, and noticed that the enforcement is "by complaint." In other words, unless someone rats on you, your aunt or nephew or cousin can live with you as long as you like. You don't suppose white Manassas residents are going to be enforcing this on one another, do you? The article noted that the "overwhelming" majority of complaints were against . . . well, guess who?

This law is not going to survive the courts. actus above points to a very similar case that figures prominently in Con. Law texts.

Driver's licenses for illegal immigrants, though. Different sort of question. When this came up in CA, the argument in favor was "They're driving anyway; let's make sure they know the rules of the road." Left unspoken was the fact that if they're driving anyway, it would be absurd for them to bother taking the tests and putting up with the hassle and expense of getting a driver's license unless it conferred benefits apart from "being able to drive." Access to Government-issued photo ID is the only incentive an illegal immigrant could possibly have to go through the process. If s/he wants to learn the rules of the road, it's easy enough to do on one's own.

Posted by: Michelle Dulak Thomson | January 3, 2006 12:09 PM

To say that everyone who manages to cross the border has the rights of a citizen is to degrade the value of citizenship. It also degrades the law, the benefits of following rules, feelings of unity based on citizenship (which necessarily means that non citizens are excluded from certain benefits) and other elements required for nationhood. To say we are all in this together, we should embrace everyone is not what people want. It is not satisfactory to the human spirit. It is not possible to care equally about all. One of the perimeters in modern life is drawn at citizenship and nationality. A place where anyone can come and immediately be as "good" as anyone else is eventually a place that no one will value. This is a fact of human nature. Liberals will say that the need to belong to some identifiable group is also the source of racism and bigotry. It is. But the need will not be done away with by liberals pointing this out. Everything in life has a negative side and we're always trying to reduce the negative (rightly so) without at the same time reducing the positive. Without some exclusitivity, there can be no group cohesion. Liberals should note that the US is already very liberal in this regard. Most nations and peoples, especially non westerners are much more exclusive than we are, to the point that non muslims or other races or tribes are barelyc considered human.

Posted by: Anita | January 3, 2006 12:14 PM

The problem with such occupancy laws is that they end up striking at traditional family configurations that ought to be encouraged. Let me offer an example that should make your blood boil.

My wife and I have no children and live in a three-bedroom house. Her niece has recently gone through a divorce and has been unable to find employment in her home town in the Rust Belt. We've made the offer to let her and her two little girls move down so that she can find work and the girls can have a stable home environment and good schools. Under the Manassas law, this would be illegal because she and the girls do not qualify as "family members", so she would either have to leave her daughters up north with her parents or either my wife or I would have to move out of the house. Three adults and two children does not constitute overcrowding -- but the Manassas government seeks to prune the family tree in an absurd manner.

Posted by: Rhymes With Right | January 4, 2006 10:45 AM

Regarding the issue of "rights" to the Children of undocumented immigrants that were brought over to America, in seek of a better life.
The last time I checked equals rights are not given to people base on where they are born but are given because they were borned, un-alienable rights. A vast majority of immigrants are hard working people, that want to contribute to this great country, and here we are telling them to go back home.

Posted by: Will T. | June 5, 2006 1:45 AM


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Law students team up with ACLU to fight for illegals

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Tuesday October 24, 2006 Last update: January 12 08:33 AM PST
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Law students team up with ACLU to fight for illegals
Lawyers decry detainments lasting up to four years
October 24, 2006
By Emma Vaughn
For the past month, the Stanford Law School Immigrants’ Rights Clinic has been working closely with the American Civil Liberties Union to secure the release of four immigrants in southern California who have been detained for periods as long as four years without a hearing.


The group filed a motion Oct. 10 asking U.S. District Judge Terry Hatter to grant the detainees immediate hearings or release them under conditions of supervision, but Hatter dismissed the case last Tuesday on the grounds that each plaintiff’s defense should be brought forth separately.

Despite this setback, the ACLU and Stanford will push ahead with their challenge to the policy. The problem with the current Immigration and Customs Enforcement Agency’s policy, they argue, is that individuals are routinely detained for extended periods of time regardless of probable deportment in the future.

“People who are detained should get a hearing to determine whether their detention is justified,” said Jayashri Srikantiah, director of the Immigrants’ Rights Clinic and an associate professor at the Law School. “This is not just limited to California. It is a problem nationwide with the Department of Homeland Security’s immigration policies.”

The four detainees include Raymond Soeoth, a 38-year-old Chinese immigrant from Indonesia, John Rasheed, a 37-year-old Nigerian, Amadou Diouf, a 31-year-old Senegalese man, and Victor Martinez, an Ecuadorian immigrant.

All four of the detainees have been kept for more than 18 months. Martinez, who has been detained for nearly four years, has a nine-year-old daughter who is an American citizen.

“A lot of these are people who, for all intents and purposes, have lived in the United States their entire life,” said Cecilia Wang, a senior staff counsel for the ACLU Immigrant Rights Project. “You wouldn’t guess that they’re not American. They’re all working and contributing to their communities.”

Prior to his detainment, Soeoth worked as a pastor in his community and owned a small cell phone business.

“This man has no criminal convictions, and would be faced with persecution if he returned to his home country,” Wang said.

Srikantiah argued that the current detention process makes it almost impossible for detainees to seek legal help or advice.

“They don’t have access to lawyers, or finances or even their families,” Srikantiah said. “They are prevented from seeking what they need to get out of detention as a result of being in detention. This is why we need a uniform policy governing the process, so that each person is treated the same.”

The recent motion came after Stanford and the ACLU filed a class-action lawsuit, calling for the release of six detainees. The motion led to the release of two of the six plaintiffs, but the reasoning behind the detainment of the other four remains unclear.

“There really is no consistent procedure,” Srikantiah said. “One of the challenges in this issue is that it appears to have no rhyme or reason in terms of who is released and who’s not.”

In 2001, the Supreme Court ruled in Zadvydas v. Davis that immigrants awaiting deportation could not be held in detention longer than six months “unless there is a realistic chance that an immigrant will be removed.” While this case pertained only to those detainees under a final order, Srikantiah said their eventual goal is to have all detainees included in this stipulation.

Virginia Kice, a spokeswoman for the Immigration and Customs Enforcement Agency, said the ruling does not apply to immigrants who are fighting their deportation. The agency is required by law to detain all immigrants convicted of certain felonies, or those considered to be flight risks or threats to public safety or national security, Kice said.

But Srikantiah disagreed.

“The difference is that here we are talking about people within the deportation proceedings,” Srikantiah said. “The Court said that detention past six months was problematic and we are saying that this context should apply to detainees even before they are deported, based on the Ninth Circuit law.”




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Comments on this article:
Report as: spam offensive Annie Vaughn - 10/24/06

This is a fascinating article. I didn't really get it...but it seems good.

Report as: spam offensive C - 10/24/06

It would be nice, for a change, to see Stanford students fighting for secure borders and real enforcement of immigration laws. Stanford's reputation is hurt when all it does it support left wing, politically correct and borderline anti-American politics.

Report as: spam offensive Mima Mohammed - 10/24/06

EDITORS - how about not using the term 'illegals' in the headline... it sounds pejorative, perhaps 'undocumented immigrant' or a term that doesn't sound like a slur...

Report as: spam offensive Luz Erendira Reyes - 10/24/06

I echo Mima's previous comment. I was greatly incensed and dissapointed by the highly politicized use of the term "illegal" in the headline for this otherwise very informative piece.
I was very displeased with the Daily because of this headline, and I hope that in the future headlines will be edited so as not detract readers from the otherwise great content.

Report as: spam offensive Managing News Editor - 10/24/06

Ms. Mohammed and Ms. Reyes- Unfortunately, we have space restrictions for headlines. As such, "illegals" fit, and that's what we ran with. I don't believe it is a misleading characterization of their status. And, even if it wasn't a perfect headline, the story is "otherwise very informative," as you point out. Best, David Herbert, Managing News Editor

Report as: spam offensive Lisa Llanos - 10/24/06

While I understand the restrictions any publication faces, I do not believe that this is any excuse for using terms that are seriously offensive to many, and in fact contradict one of the main slogans of the immigrants rights movement - "no human being is illegal." While I appreciate the Daily for writing an excellent article and by no means believe that the writer or the editors intended the word "illegal" to be offensive, I still believe it is the responsibility of the newspaper to recognize its lack of sensitivity in using this term and refrain from using it in the future.

Report as: spam offensive Stanis - 10/24/06

Of course some humans are illegal when they do not act according to the law. Our prisons are full of such people. If you want to change the law so that anyone can come into the US without restriction, fine, but do not try to claim that they are not illegally here.

Report as: spam offensive Will - 10/24/06

I don't understand why people use the word illegal. It makes as much sense as calling me an "illegal driver" because I ran a red or I speed on the 880. If anything I am a habitual speeder. For that reason I feel "undocument immigrant" makes more sense. Heck, I would even say "unlawful immigrant" is a more acceptable term (maybe not so pc though).

Report as: spam offensive Brendan - 10/25/06

Will, here's a better example: you would be an "illegal driver," for example, if you drive without a license or if your license has been revoked. Perhaps not wonderful grammar, but also not inaccurate. Most of the comments here are examples of political correctness gone amock, and they misrepresent what progressive politics is about.

Report as: spam offensive TR - 10/25/06

Managing Editor, thank you for your response! "Illegal" is the proper descriptive term. If some overly sensitive people's feelings are hurt by such a properly descriptive term, then that's their own issue. It seems to me the posters above want to obscure the fact that the people in question are illegal immigrants, and the posters seem to want to confuse illegal immigrants with those of us who chose to immigrate legally. Their P.C. complaints seem to be based on nothing but anti-border enforcement politics. It's only too bad the article itself does not adequately present all views nor its author seem to want to identify the people in question as being in this country illegally. In fact, the fairest part of the whole article is the headline, which was probably written by someone else.

Report as: spam offensive Jan Huisman - 10/25/06

The debate over the use of the word 'illegal' is difficult, to be sure. TR and other respondents are correct when saying that it is an accurate descriptive term. Yet migrant workers' illegal status stems from highly debatable laws. Many conservatives will argue that immigrants should not be here merely because they are illegal, thereby using highly evasive and empty rhetoric. For this reason the term 'illegal' should not become entrenched in the discourse regarding immigration, because it shuts down any open discussion about the reality and historical context of immigration.

Report as: spam offensive Michael Ortiz - 10/25/06

I really liked this article, but not as much as little boys..

Report as: spam offensive TR - 10/25/06

Jan and others, I have never heard anyone seriously argue against illegal immigration purely on grounds that it is illegal. That's a straw man argument if I've ever heard one. Sorry to have to state the obvious, but our country must have control over who is entering, not only for obvious economic reasons but also for national security. Right now there is no control whatsoever... border security is a complete farce. Maybe you think there is no good basis for national immigration law. Maybe you believe that the U.S. doesn't have a right to protect the interests of its citizens and maybe you believe national borders should just disappear, in which case you should just be honest and say that. But getting back to the issue of the headline, it's a shame that some will try to use the power of language to obscure and desensitize. The word "illegal" hurts feelings and, therefore, should be avoided? I don't think so. Of course we all understand why people would want to immigrate to the U.S., but that doesn't mean we need to give up our nation's sovereignty and right to self-preservation. What we need to do is resist the demands of the ridiculous politically correct language police that are heard so often at Stanford and elsewhere.

Report as: spam offensive Adrian G. - 10/26/06

The debate over the headline reminds me of the debate over "evacuee" and "refugee" back in September '05. Both terms had arguments which backed their use, although one had a more negative connotation to it, no matter how accurate a descriptor it might have been. The use of the word "illegal" as opposed to another word (such as "immigrant") will inevitably put off some people, no matter how accurate it may be. In retrospect, perhaps a better, objective headline would have read "Law students join ACLU in fight for immigrants." This headline is shorter than the one used here while still getting the main idea of the story across. In any case, perhaps one of the main problems here with this story lies not with the headline itself in as much as the story never states that the immigrants are in the U.S. illegally (the word is not mentioned in the article). By using the word "illegals" in its headline, the Daily has inadvertantly passed judgement on four men who have not yet been judged by the courts, except to say that they should be detained.

Report as: spam offensive anonymous - 10/26/06

the comment from michael ortiz is not from him. it was a pathetic attempt of mine to be funny and make a joke. none of it is true. sorry.

Report as: spam offensive TR - 10/27/06

Adrian G., you unwittingly make the point that the article seems to want to avoid identifying the people in question as illegal immigrants or non-citizens. Luckily, it seems that at least one person at the Daily knows the score and that is the page editor or whoever wrote the headline. OBVIOUSLY these people are illegal or non-citizens or else the Immigration Agency would not be involved. When was the last time you heard about Immigration getting involved in cases where U.S. citizens were accused of criminal acts or being security threats? Not very often. No matter how much some people want to use language to confuse the two, "immigrants" is not interchangeable with "illegal immigrants/illegal aliens/illegals" and to do so would be an insult to legal immigrants. The truth might be offensive to some people, but that doesn't mean it should be avoided. Another important thing to remember is that border control isn't a personal attack on anyone (after all, it's not a surprise that so many would jump a fence or dig a tunnel to enter this country illegally, especially given how the U.S. practically invites them to do so) but rather a necessity for our prosperity and security. The old and tired offensive/insensitive/racist/uncaring smear canard isn't working anymore as more and more people wisen up to our border problems. Just because these four might have been the ones handpicked or hilighted by the ACLU (possibly because of their supposed sympathetic sounding stories?), it doesn't mean we shouldn't be extra cautious with other people who come to this country and alledgedly commit felonies or otherwise threaten our security. And where's the concern that these detainees might in fact pose security risks? I guess all the concern and outrage is exhausted after being directed at perfectly accurate headlines that might hurt someone's feelings.

Report as: spam offensive Daniel Lopez - 10/29/06

I was simply shocked to see that Stanford University, a place that I have idolized since birth, would use the word "illegal" when speaking of undocumented human beings. TR's argument is ignorant at best. According to your argument, TR, the United States government has never faulted in anything it does. I think you would be a good advisor to the current tyrant we now have in office.

The fact is that the United States government is at fault for Latin American mass migration to the United States. NAFTA is the primary culprit because the avenues of trade are not evenly split. The US is free to export while many Latin American countries are unable to import their products. For example, Uruapan, Michoacan, Mexico is the world's largest producer of avocado yet we do not see any Mexican avocado in the U.S.! What Mexican state do you think has the largest population of immigrants to the US? You guessed it, Michoacan.

Oh, and one last thing TR...

What about the Canadian border? Do you, or anyone else for that matter, really believe that terrorists are going to come in through the Mexican border obstacle course when they have a door wide open through the Canadian border?
DONT BE RIDICULOUS!

Report as: spam offensive Alma Valencia, CSU Chico Student - 10/30/06

I disagree with the title given to this article. Being a Mexican-American and college educated woman, I find the word "illegals" extremely offensive. Using this word only makes matters worse, instead of improving the Latino Community, it is bringing it down. Please think and educate yourself about the words used before publishing them. Thank you,


Alma Valencia
CSU, Chico Student


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