N-400. Request for evidence after interview. 4 year + 1 day rule – my experience.

TKRacer

New Member
N-400. Request for evidence after interview. 4 year + 1 day rule – my experience.


Hello Everyone!

I've just had my naturalization interview. While I passed the civics test, I ran into issues with the interview portion of it when it came to reviewing the trips I took within the last 5 years (my application was based on 5-year continuous residence). The trip that raised their concern was the one I took in 2012, I was away for more than 6 months but less than a year (April 2012 – Jan 2013). While being away I had mandatory job placement, temporary contract which I had to fulfill – this is the legal obligation for graduates that get free higher education in my country. So, I was technically employed, which I disclosed during the interview (the officer specifically asked about that).

After the interview I left without a definitive response.
A week later I got a letter via mail - requesting to provide proof of continuous residence and physical presence, they attached questionnaire related to that matter as well.


*********

Now about 4 year+1 day rule.

My concern was filing initial paperwork too early. I knew the safest way would be to do that 5 years minus 90 days from the time I returned from my last long trip (from Jan 2013) meaning Sept 2017.
I wish I had done that. But instead I started to do research on 4 year and 1 day rule and whether it is applicable for trips of more than 6 months but less than 1 year.
I read a lot of forums with different opinions on that matter and finally decided to call USCIS line to get a definitive answer, talked to 2 different agents (still have their names and employee #s written down) and was advised that this rule was indeed applicable in my scenario (after returning in Jan 2013, I was at 4 years and 5 months at the time of sending in N-400 form).

As I mentioned above, the interview did not go as planned.
Having looked at my cover letter, the immigration officer just stated that 4 year and 1 day rule only applied if the application was declined due to the beak in residence, and sometimes the policies could be confusing (I guess referring to the fact that 2 different USCIS agents advised me otherwise); and that they would need more time to look into my trips.

After I received the notice requesting further evidence a week later, I just couldn’t let go and called USCIS again asking for clarification, was transferred to an escalated line, spoke to an immigration officer who told me that a year ago I might have talked to tier 1 agent who might not be aware of all the procedures; and that I should have filed N400 at 4 years minus 90 days mark. When I asked her about the 4 year and 1 day rule in general, she had no idea what I was referring to at all (imagine that!!!) and bottom line they were not assuming any responsibility for any misinformation, if I get denied I can file an appeal.


Hope this experience helps someone else not to make the same mistake and not to rely blindly on information you get from USCIS customer service.
**********


Now back to the best way to get out of this (if it is even possible).
This is where I need help. I am trying to make sense of the dates that are mentioned as a starting point of their calculations for continuous residence.

1st Question.
I have mailed form N-400 June 30th 2017.
The cover letter I got from USCIS is requesting proof or residence and list of all trips during statutory period - starting from August 7th 2012 to PRESENT.
Why August 7th 2012? It is not exactly 5 years from the date of filing N400 Form. Any ideas?

Along with the cover letter, I got separate questionnaire where they request to list all absences from August 4th 2010 (and whether I was employed outside of the U.S. at that time) - verbatim "Please list any absence(s) from the U.S. for continuous periods of between six(6) months and one(1) year from which you returned during your naturalization statutory - the period from August 4, 2010 to the present time".
Why 2010? The statutory period is 5 years, not 8 years! To me it seems like a typo, and it should match the cover letter to say August 7, 2012 to PRESENT.
And if it is a typo, how can I point it out nicely? I don't really want to dig that deep, into 2010.



2nd Question.

What is the best strategy moving forward?

a/ I should be consistent and still try to “push” 4 year and 1 day exception (on August 7 2012 I was in the middle of my last long trip) or it doesn't make any sense at all in the light of the latest news that most probably I was misinformed (even though I have employee # of USCIS agent who I talked to a year ago)?

or

b/ I should forget about 4 year and 1 day exception.
  • I am pointing out that the questionnaire has a typo and the statutory period begins August 7 2012 (to match the cover letter they sent me) instead of August 4 2010.
  • Then I am filling out the questionnaire indicating my last long trip there (April 2012 – Jan 2013), but pointing out that the portion of it that counts towards statutory period is less than 6 months (August 7 2012 – Jan 30 2013).
  • As far as my employment during that trip, I am letting them know that my job obligation was over by the end of June 2012 (my contract was over), so technically I wasn’t employed between August 7 2012 – Jan 30 2013 - dates, that count toward statutory period.
  • I am trying to proof that my residence wasn’t broken - by providing evidence of ties I had in US such as the same employer I was working for, open bank accounts, tax returns I filed every year. My husband (at that time my boyfriend) who is a US citizen (was born in U.S.) was in the US during that time, and visited me in 2010 and 2011 - can that be presented as a tie as well (I could attach copies of his passport with visas and stamps indicating crossing the border when he visited me)?
And, of course, I would provide detailed explanation in my cover letter as well.

or

c/ Again I should forget about 4 year and 1 day exception.
  • I am pointing out that the questionnaire has a typo and the statutory period begins August 7 2012 (to match the cover letter they sent me) instead of August 4 2010.
  • I am leaving the questionnaire blank (put N/A under 6+ months trips).
  • I am explaining in my cover letter that dates of my trip that counted toward statutory period (from August 7 2012 to Jan 30 2013) were less than 6 months, even though the trip itself was longer, but the rest of it was outside of statutory period.
  • Again provide evidence of ties I had in US (the last part of b/ strategy).
With this last strategy, I wouldn’t have to get into why I had to work outside of the U.S., but I don’t want them to accuse me of hiding information (since they asked me about employment during the interview) and don’t meet good moral character standards.


3rd Question.
My green card expires mid-July 2017.

I didn’t have to officially renew it (since it did not expire for over a year from the application date) and already scheduled Infopass appointment to get temporary stamp into my passport.

If I get denied for the reason of filing too early (did not accumulate 5-year continuous residency preceding the application date), there is no waiting time before I can re-apply (since it is taking so long for the process, at this moment I already have 5 continuous years accumulated), is it correct?

And would I need to apply for official renewal of the Green Card as well (temporary stamp wouldn’t do any good) - USCIS agent told me it was recommended, and I could do both paperworks simultaneously. Does anyone have any information on that?



I hope for your advice and I can clarify any “grey” areas if you need any other info. Thank you in advance.
 
Fyi. I stopped reading after you said they”re requesting evidence from 2010.

Im no lawyer. But it seems clear that they”re trying to determine if you abandoned your LPR status. And strip you of your green card.

Did you maintain a permanent residence and significant ties whilst out of the US.

Telling them you worked whilst out for so long only made matters worst.
 
is this the short version: you broke continuous residence with an absence of longer than 6 months, tried to get around it using the 4 year + 1 day rule, and that didn’t work?
 
Why apply using the 4 year + 1 day rule in the first place? An additional 4-month wait may have prevented all this.

Agree with Jbuff.. they might dig deeper.
 
Fyi. I stopped reading after you said they”re requesting evidence from 2010.

Im no lawyer. But it seems clear that they”re trying to determine if you abandoned your LPR status. And strip you of your green card.

Did you maintain a permanent residence and significant ties whilst out of the US.

Telling them you worked whilst out for so long only made matters worst.

Thank you for the answer.

I regret a lot that I filed my papers listening to ISCIS customer service reps following that 4 years+1 day rule.
Had I waited for another 4-5 months, I wouldn't have gotten myself into this situation.
They might want to dig into 2010 on purpose, I understand. But why do they count to that time towards naturalization statutory?
The questionnaire asks - verbatim "Please list any absence(s) from the U.S. for continuous periods of between six(6) months and one(1) year from which you returned during your naturalization statutory - the period from August 4, 2010 to the present time".

As far as significant ties - my permanent residence was at my fiancé's house (we are married now), he stayed in the U.S. while I was away, he visited me twice in 2010 and 2011 (I can provide copies of his visas).

What are you thoughts on question 2?
 
is this the short version: you broke continuous residence with an absence of longer than 6 months, tried to get around it using the 4 year + 1 day rule, and that didn’t work?

Thank you for your reply.
Yes, after being away for more than 6 months but less than a year, I was trying to file my paperwork at 4 years and 5 years mark (listening to USCIS reps which I shouldn't have had), and now I am in the middle of this mess. I wish I would have waited for another 4 -5 months and would have been safe, but it is too late for that now. Now I will try to prove that I maintained ties while being away, it is the only option I have left.

Do you have any ideas on any of the 3 questions I have posted?
With that questionnaire they sent, I think I should really point out about 2010 not being included into my statutory period and adjust the information they are requesting accordingly (starting with August 2012).

As far as misinformation I was provided about the earlies fining date - I am assuming it makes to sense to fight it. Kinda '"too bad, so sad" situation.
 
Why apply using the 4 year + 1 day rule in the first place? An additional 4-month wait may have prevented all this.

Agree with Jbuff.. they might dig deeper.

Yep, I wish I never took that path listening to "official" info I got from USCIS reps, but it's too late know. Makes not sense to fight it at this point, right?

As far as the questions in the post - any suggestions on that?
 
I think you need to stop blaming others are take responsibility for your own action and decision in this case. You clearly knew from the get go you didn’t qualify for the 4 years + 1 day rule but decided to explore it nonetheless. You knew you had broken the 6 months residency requirement but was looking for ways to still make that count in your favor. All you needed to have done was use the filing date calculator provided by USCIS on their website to figure out your eligibility date: https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/dateCalculator.html

Your tendency to over analyze things got you in the mess you’re currently in and you don’t seem to have learned from it IMO. You have a RFE asking you to provide some specific information, rather than respond accordingly, you’re going on and on about pointing out to them the information they’re asking for has no bearing on your statutory period. There’s a reason that information is being requested.

And by the way, having a fiancé in the US while you were away, (or using his passport stamps as evidence of him visiting you) are not evidence of maintaining strong ties IMO. A fiancé does not constitute immediate family member.

Did you file taxes during the period you were away? Did you have bank accounts you were maintaining in the US? Did you have a valid US driver’s license?
 
While the physical and continuous presence requirements need to be met within the 5 years preceding, uscis has the right to look into your entire period as a LPR (that is why some of the questions ask “have you ever... (whatever)” since becoming an LPR.
When did you get your green card and on what basis? Would it be 2007, judging by the GC expiry? If so there must have been a lot of absences if it took you 10 years to apply for naturalization?

And by the way, having a fiancé in the US while you were away, (or using his passport stamps as evidence of him visiting you) are not evidence of maintaining strong ties IMO. A fiancé does not constitute immediate family member.

Did you file taxes during the period you were away? Did you have bank accounts you were maintaining in the US? Did you have a valid US driver’s license?

I would think visiting the US rather than the other way round would have been a better tie.
And - the questions mom asks are certainly relevant, especially re tax. Were you able to answer that you have filed tax returns every year since becoming an LPR?
 
Thank you for your reply.
Yes, after being away for more than 6 months but less than a year, I was trying to file my paperwork at 4 years and 5 years mark (listening to USCIS reps which I shouldn't have had), and now I am in the middle of this mess. I wish I would have waited for another 4 -5 months and would have been safe, but it is too late for that now. Now I will try to prove that I maintained ties while being away, it is the only option I have left.

Do you have any ideas on any of the 3 questions I have posted?
With that questionnaire they sent, I think I should really point out about 2010 not being included into my statutory period and adjust the information they are requesting accordingly (starting with August 2012).

As far as misinformation I was provided about the earlies fining date - I am assuming it makes to sense to fight it. Kinda '"too bad, so sad" situation.

Unfortunately, uscis reps can and do make errors. I think it would be futile to try fight it.

I also think it’s quite a risky strategy to just decide they must have made an error and censor the information you provide based on that judgement. Certainly, it makes it look like there is stuff you prefer concealed. Of course it’s your case, your decision, but if it were me I would give them exactly what they ask for.
 
If it were me

Id leave it as is.

Not send in any info. Let the case be abandoned . Sending them any info will only harm you. Not help you.
 
If it were me

Id leave it as is.

Not send in any info. Let the case be abandoned . Sending them any info will only harm you. Not help you.

And you think uscis is just going to forget about it? Not question it at next interview? It will all be in the A file, after all.
 
And you think uscis is just going to forget about it? Not question it at next interview? It will all be in the A file, after all.
They wont forget about it But if O/P is smart she wont apply for N400 Back anytime soon.

Whats her options?

1: send in the info they”re asking for and not only get denied but possibly put in removal proceedings.
Or
2: wait a year or 2 reapply . Cement her residency not giving them any reason to go back any further than the 5years and maybe Maybe answer a few questions about her previous application

I was in a similar situation i applied for n400 got into trouble before the interview was asked to provide court documents within 30 days which i couldnt get at the time because the case was still pending. So i couldnt send anything in and case was abandoned.

At my last interview The guy said “oh i see you applied before, hopefully you have better luck this time” his exact words.
 
They wont forget about it But if O/P is smart she wont apply for N400 Back anytime soon.

Whats her options?

1: send in the info they”re asking for and not only get denied but possibly put in removal proceedings.
Or
2: wait a year or 2 reapply . Cement her residency not giving them any reason to go back any further than the 5years and maybe Maybe answer a few questions about her previous application

I was in a similar situation i applied for n400 got into trouble before the interview was asked to provide court documents within 30 days which i couldnt get at the time because the case was still pending. So i couldnt send anything in and case was abandoned.

At my last interview The guy said “oh i see you applied before, hopefully you have better luck this time” his exact words.
Did you provide the court documents or anything else related to the case at your next interview?
 
Did you provide the court documents or anything else related to the case at your next interview?
Yes, I didnt have the disposition But i did have the final order of expungement

Because i had the case expunged So the courts didnt have any documents.
And they accepted that Document

I get what your”re saying when she does go back in for a second interview .”if thats the route she takes” The first application Will come up.
But unlike my criminal matters O/P is dealing with Residency issues. At this point id be scare to send in documents just proving i broke Residency Requirements within the 5 year period.

Tough choice for her,only she can make now.
 
Yes, I didnt have the disposition But i did have the final order of expungement

Because i had the case expunged So the courts didnt have any documents.
And they accepted that Document

I get what your”re saying when she does go back in for a second interview .”if thats the route she takes” The first application Will come up.
But unlike my criminal matters O/P is dealing with Residency issues. At this point id be scare to send in documents just proving i broke Residency Requirements within the 5 year period.

Tough choice for her,only she can make now.

My point was that you abandoned the case but had the requisite info that was asked for in your next application
So the officer didn’t have to ask you why you just ignored the previous info and hoped it would go away

You may recall it’s not the 5 year period she’s worried about, it’s 2010 she wants to hide. Seems she got away with something back then that she’s now worried about. Reading back on the first post it seems she spent the better part of 3 years out the country, possibly longer (unclear when her job began, and she later said she doesn’t want to have to explain working outside the country).
Would be nice for OP to clarify length of green card and the various absences, but I am now also wondering if the RFE was indeed only because she tried to use 4 year and 1 day rule.... or if they would have looked this deep anyway - it could be kind of standard thing to look more deeply at people who seem to take unusually long before they naturalize because it’s probably often due to long absences (Speculation)
 
My point was that you abandoned the case but had the requisite info that was asked for in your next application
So the officer didn’t have to ask you why you just ignored the previous info and hoped it would go away

You may recall it’s not the 5 year period she’s worried about, it’s 2010 she wants to hide. Seems she got away with something back then that she’s now worried about. Reading back on the first post it seems she spent the better part of 3 years out the country, possibly longer (unclear when her job began, and she later said she doesn’t want to have to explain working outside the country).
Would be nice for OP to clarify length of green card and the various absences, but I am now also wondering if the RFE was indeed only because she tried to use 4 year and 1 day rule.... or if they would have looked this deep anyway - it could be kind of standard thing to look more deeply at people who seem to take unusually long before they naturalize because it’s probably often due to long absences (Speculation)

You are right the IO said he would give me a suggestion of approval but without the court document he would have to refer the case to his supervisor for approval and even then chances are slim without the necessary documents because they need the original copy for their records.
But luckily i came prepared
And it was 10 years between my 2 applications. Got it the second time around. Never left the country in that time frame . Its safe to say i was a little paranoid. Going on vacationsout of the country didnt seem worth the risk to me.

OP should specify when GC was issued and absences from the country,that way we all can get a better understanding .But judging from the info so far Not looking so good for her case.
 
My point was that you abandoned the case but had the requisite info that was asked for in your next application
So the officer didn’t have to ask you why you just ignored the previous info and hoped it would go away

You may recall it’s not the 5 year period she’s worried about, it’s 2010 she wants to hide. Seems she got away with something back then that she’s now worried about. Reading back on the first post it seems she spent the better part of 3 years out the country, possibly longer (unclear when her job began, and she later said she doesn’t want to have to explain working outside the country).
Would be nice for OP to clarify length of green card and the various absences, but I am now also wondering if the RFE was indeed only because she tried to use 4 year and 1 day rule.... or if they would have looked this deep anyway - it could be kind of standard thing to look more deeply at people who seem to take unusually long before they naturalize because it’s probably often due to long absences (Speculation)

Thank you for all the responses.
Let me give you all the dates so that you have full picture of my case.
I never got in trouble with the law.
My issue is not being much in the US till Jan 2013.

My GC was issued in 2008 while I was still in college (I won it in DV lottery).
While finishing college my dates in US were:
2008 June-Sept (seasonal job)
2009 June-August (seasonal job)
2010 January-March (didn't work)

After graduating, my country practices what is call mandatory job assignment for at least 2 years (imposed by the government, legal obligation). So I was tied for another 2 years in that contract (starting from summer 2010).
My visits to US during that time were:
2011 Feb-March (didn't work)
2012 Feb-April (seasonal work).

So the last long trip I too was April 2012 - Jan 2013. As of Jan 2013 the trips I took were for 4-6 weeks per year (visiting my parents).
I filed taxes for the years I had income in US.
Even though mandatory job placement did not leave me much choice, but to fulfill the contract, I was technically employed, and that is not good, and I don't think USCIS would consider this to be exceptional circumstances.

Thinking about the way the situation developed, I am leaning towards missing the deadline for providing evidence (I have till mid-July) and let my case automatically expire (or should I request withdrawal in writing?).
Meanwhile since my GC is expiring mid-July, while the case is still pending, I have scheduled Infopass appointment to get temporary stamp into my passport. Following that appointment I would file for renewal of the GC - I understand I can do that before I get official notification that naturalization case is abandoned, that shouldn't cause issues.
As far as any further attempts to file form N-400, what are you suggestions about the earliest I should try again if I decide to do so?


Again thank you for you time.
 
My GC was issued in 2008 while I was still in college (I won it in DV lottery).
While finishing college my dates in US were:
2008 June-Sept (seasonal job)
2009 June-August (seasonal job)
2010 January-March (didn't work)

After graduating, my country practices what is call mandatory job assignment for at least 2 years (imposed by the government, legal obligation). So I was tied for another 2 years in that contract (starting from summer 2010).
My visits to US during that time were:
2011 Feb-March (didn't work)
2012 Feb-April (seasonal work).

So the last long trip I too was April 2012 - Jan 2013. .

Wow
Quite frankly, I’m amazed you managed to keep your green card.

Not sure what to advise you, will leave that up to others.
 
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