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Trump attacks Diversity Visa program

Discussion in 'Lottery Visas - DV' started by rafi-cairo, Nov 1, 2017.

  1. Pierre82

    Pierre82 Well-Known Member

    Just to clarify a little. I think Brazil issues are more related to government corruption rather than immigration. I think both countries have different scenarios in my opinion and probably no one from those developing nations would use those terms to describe their countries.

    I think you are a DV winner and I don't think that you left your country because it is a ****hole..
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 15, 2018 at 10:47 AM
  2. Pierre82

    Pierre82 Well-Known Member

    I understand your point but again Brazil and the U.S. are two very different scenarios and I never see the U.S. in similar situation like Brazil. EVERY country has a level of corruption and this is the main reason on why some countries are ****holes. The reason for a country to be fail state is no excuse for it to be called these names, specially if you are from these countries and trust me, people without a culture are on every single country. I´m sure everyone agrees that the U.S. needs a more skilled workforce but the terms used, only show the level of ignorance of this individual and lack of understanding on what needs to be done in order to correct the problem (Not with a very expensive wall) or calling out names. How convenient that you don't see your nation as a ****hole but you left to Europe. I´m sure some Europeans don't think the same way of your country trust me.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 15, 2018 at 10:48 AM
  3. SusieQQQ

    SusieQQQ Well-Known Member

    Saabe, just because the president has a pottymouth doesn’t mean you should come on here and post profanity filled posts. The forum has standards.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018 at 12:12 PM
    Qewty likes this.
  4. SusieQQQ

    SusieQQQ Well-Known Member

    By the way there are some very eloquent arguments that taking in people from poor dysfunctional countries is not charity, it’s not like the US goes in and scoops people up from the slums to bring back, but that the people that make it out of places like that to reach the US are those with grit and initiative and often, qualifications and/or ambitions that would limit them in their home country. That these are the type of people, just like a hundred or so years ago (like Paul Ryan described his ancestors, Irish, poor but hardworking) who are exactly the type America needs, who have the grit and ambition to keep not only the American ideal but the type of American who made the economy so innovative and world leading, to continue. (Don’t forget there was nothing much in the US but land and freedom 150 years ago, the people made it what it is) You could indeed argue that this type of immigrant will do more for the US than some mollycoddled Western European who’s had everything handed to them on a plate, even if they do have a college degree. (Not intended to insult Western Europeans but to make a point. Also note by the way that the immigrants from “sh*thole” countries aren’t the ones who complain about the US health system or lack of worker protection like the Western Europeans...) And here you could fit in everyone from Elon Musk to a Nepalese family I know who came in with just knowing how to thread eyebrows (and sell food but didn’t do that here) and have ended up with a chain of beauty salons, nothing much you might think but all the youngsters in the family are going to college, one is already doing an MBA, these kids are going places and going to contribute “bigly”.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018 at 12:19 PM
    abumiqdad, FashamGH and Pierre82 like this.
  5. Pierre82

    Pierre82 Well-Known Member

    I would like to see you go back to your home country and ask your comrades if they consider their home country a ****hole. If you are fine with others calling these names its fine, but it does not mean that others will tolerate it. They are also several examples of poor migrants that moved to the U.S. and are now very successful business persons, so please don't come with the excuse that all poor migrants will be living of welfare or that all poor migrants that are in the U.S. are illegal.

    I have never compared corruption in Brazil with Haiti, my comparisons are all related to the U.S and if you are so concern of so many illegal migrants in the U.S. , then why go there? You are talking about so many things of poor people migrating and you have probably never been to countries like Brazil or Venezuela in order to really understand why people migrate in the first place.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 15, 2018 at 10:48 AM
  6. SusieQQQ

    SusieQQQ Well-Known Member

    Pierre, some people are very like Trump and his base (whether or not agreeing politically with them), in that they have their own view of the world, and reason doesn’t change it.

    A wise person on a forum once gave me advice I will now share with you. It was:
    Don’t get into wrestling matches with swine. You both get covered in mud, but the pigs enjoy it.
     
    Ireeln and Mushy_hot like this.
  7. Pierre82

    Pierre82 Well-Known Member

    Thanks for sharing your advice and I will follow @SusieQQQ I hope you are having a great weekend and I also hope that you have not been affected with the recent rains and mudslides in California.
     
    SusieQQQ likes this.
  8. Mushy_hot

    Mushy_hot Registered Users (C)

    Nothing to add.
     
  9. Alien2010

    Alien2010 Registered Users (C)

  10. saabe

    saabe Active Member

    Susie,....this argument, very eloquent indeed but shallow, is pure bullsh*, sorry,...balloonie. You can't compare the 19-early-20th cenutry raggy jew or starving Irish or the despised Japanese,...to today's unskilled immigrants, because simply today's curcumstances are not the same, and they're not that similar as you think. First of all, indeed there was some sort of natural selection, the journey was just too long, costly, perilous and with uncertain results (they were not guaranteed entry to the US and not even sure they would improve their life) to gamble with even your most modest but stable living conditions,...so only the most adventurous and ambitious made the journey (and this is something I still notice today,...the ones who work the hardest and succeed are usually the ones who invested the most to be where they are,...the stakes are just too high to fail. ). Second,...life in the US was tough, no welfare, no handouts and no sympathy from nobody...you worked hard or you starved. So only the most hardworking came to the US and survived. Most first immigrants worked hard but led modest lives and made sure their children would have a better life than they. Third, in 19th and early 20th cenutry, there was no multiculturism or diversity was an alien concept. New immigrants had to assimilate, speak english and reject their culture. The lack of internet, television, telecommunications and airplanes also helped them to disconnect completely from their homecountries. America was their new and only country, and they had to melt into the mass. Fourth, we're talking about 19th century and early 20th century,...no computers, no electronics and no sophisticated machinery,...lots of jobs for able-bodied men and lots of opportunities in an underpopulated country with lots of territories to explore and develop and lots of available (and free) land for every european landless peasant ready to sweat for something they can own. The US today is another story. And most importantly, and this is something that can sound a little contreversial,...it was and it's still easier for a european to assimilate into a western, culturally european country, that's self-evident. Immigrants from non-western countries (Lebanese and Syrians, Japanese, early mexicans immigrants) and non-christians (jews) had a harder time to be accepted, but since they were expected to prove their "americanness",...they worked hard to emulate anglo-saxons and americanize themselves. Todays immigrants not only are not expected to assimilate, they're encouraged to stay different. And I could go on but let's stop here,...you're drawing comparisons between different things, different situations and differnt epochs to make a point that one is just as good as the other. And this is a fallacy.

    PS: And yes, I can't stand european immigrants either (some even refuse to be called "immigrants" and prefer the term "expats" to not be confused with the Mexicans, you know) in the US criticizing their host country and drawing stupid comparisons like socialized healthcare (while those who can afford it pay for a private insurance to avoid long waiting times to see a specialist or get a surgery,..and they can't even deduce it from their taxes), free higher education, public transport, food and how everything is sophisticated in Europe,...when they left their "paradise" for something, basically because they had to pay 50% in income taxes to pay for the welfare state, and the free state-controlled universities in Europe haven't produced anything of value since early 20th century ,....and they have to go to US universities because of more research opportunities. I really hope the US will never follow Europe's path, but I'm afraid it's something inevitable,....
     
  11. saabe

    saabe Active Member

    So,...you call me "pig" because you don't agree with me. You're really open-minded. Have a nice day (that means,...let's agree to disagree and call it quits). The same for Pierre,...you're continuously engaging in ad-hominem attacks, and I have no patience for this (and you don't even read my posts,..or maybe you just don't get my point). The same for you, have a nice day. ;)
     
  12. Pierre82

    Pierre82 Well-Known Member

  13. SusieQQQ

    SusieQQQ Well-Known Member

    I don’t recall addressing you for anything other than asking you to stop cussing on the forum. I gave Pierre a piece of advice word for word as it was given to me. If you want to take that personally, that’s up to you. Quite frankly, once I started seeing a bunch of 4-letter words in extremely long posts I stopped reading them. Including the one you replied to me above, I know from before you engage in these long rants that quite frankly I don’t bother to waste my time reading. So... I don’t actually know what you wrote, hence why I didn’t bother addressing you for anything else. Did you apologize for swearing anywhere in them, by the way?
     
  14. SusieQQQ

    SusieQQQ Well-Known Member

    Interesting op-ed today, including a note that “sub-Saharan Africans have “among the highest college-completion rates of any immigrant group.”

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/12/...of-holers.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0

    And from the text link in the quote :

    Sub-Saharan immigrants have much higher educational attainment compared to the overall foreign- and native-born populations. In 2015, 39 percent of sub-Saharan Africans (ages 25 and over) had a bachelor’s degree or higher, compared to 29 percent of the total foreign-born population and 31 percent of the U.S.-born population”

    So much for “charity cases”.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018 at 4:45 PM
  15. SusieQQQ

    SusieQQQ Well-Known Member

  16. Pierre82

    Pierre82 Well-Known Member

    Thanks for sharing those important facts. :)
     
  17. saabe

    saabe Active Member

    Come on Susie,...it's obvious when talked about "the swine" you were referring to me. I never insulted you or talked to you with disrespect. I sometimes even say "you are right" even when you are not,....just to keep the peace and stop the argument. What more, you're the one popping up angrily everytime I say something that doesn't fit in your worldview. You're a nice but very argumentative person. And it's obvious from day one we don't share the same outlook on life,...and while I'm open to a free exchange of ideas and may even change my opinion if I'm proven wrong,....you're quite dogmatic and emotional, and often engage in personal attacks. So here is my proposal: From now on I will stop commenting on politics here. Just don't pick a fight everytime I comment on something not even remotely related to politics (as you sometimes do). Otherwise you're one of the posters I most appreciate here (for your helpfulness),....I just don't stand your tendency for arguing. So let's just keep it cordial and strictly "business". Have a nice day.
     
  18. SusieQQQ

    SusieQQQ Well-Known Member

    I’m totally confused at how you think I’m arguing with you when I didn’t even read what you wrote. What exactly am I arguing with? Where? What post of yours (other than my response in post 176) did you think I was responding to? What position of yours did I refer to and argue about? Other than: stop using swear words here.

    If you don’t understand what an idiom is (did you look at the wiktionary link?) maybe you can look that up you rather than choosing to take sayings personally. Or maybe you also think that, for example, when I talk about banging my head against a brick wall that I’m actually literally bashing my own head in? If you do want to move to the US, you’ll need to understand idiomatic English or you’re going to have some ...misunderstandings...in real life too.
     
  19. saabe

    saabe Active Member

    Haitian and African immigrants are actually doing better than traditional immigrant groups (like Mexicans and Central Americans). --->
    http://cis.org/sites/cis.org/files/camarota-profile-t10.png
    http://cis.org/sites/cis.org/files/camarota-profile-t27.png


    The African success story is well-documented (and well-studied and compared to their African-American cousins who fare much worse as a whole), and if you weed out Somali refugees (not because they're Somalis!, but because their migration process was different and therefore they cannot be compared to Nigerians, Kenyans or Senegalese who mostly came as students o DV lottery winners),...the poverty+near-poverty rate may well be below 40% and closer to the rate of eastern-Asians.

    So Trump should get his facts straight. Although of course,...we should take in consideration most of Africans didn't come as illegal immigrants or refugees and most invested enormously and went through many hassles and screening processes to move to the US,...so there was some sort of "natural selection". In Europe it's the other way around, Mexicans and central Americans are usually successful, for the same reasons mentioned above (most come as students or skilled workers,...so there is a Natural Selection). This also proves my point about the correlation between Distance+Cost-Of-Moving+Number-of-Obstacles and likelihood of success.

    So at the end what determines the likelihood of success of an immigrant, is not country of origin but personal qualities.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2018 at 3:17 AM
  20. SusieQQQ

    SusieQQQ Well-Known Member

    As I said before, this forum is supposed to have standards. I don’t care about church. Yes, those ARE swear words, by any definition. I don’t know why you feel such a need to justify using them here. Would you use them in a job interview, not “church” either? Would you use them when talking to your friends’ children? Would you use them in front of a bunch of kids at a school? Would you use them doing a professional presentation to clients?

    You may not realize this if your entire knowledge of America comes from action movies, but many Americans are a lot more conservative regarding acceptable behavior in a day to day context than Europeans or Brits are. Why on earth do you think there was such outrage about the president using this word in the first place? He wasn’t in church either, he was in a private meeting. Every tv /news program reporting on it either censored the word or warned viewers about the language to follow, saying they would only use it once to report. If it’s not a swear word why would they not just say it? TV isn’t church, after all.

    If you are both unable to figure out what a swear word is as well as not understand idiomatic English, you’re going to have even more problems communicating in the US than I thought before.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2018 at 12:15 PM

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