Velcan
Member
Yeah some USCIS support centers may not be aware of the latest USCIS memoranda concerning DV cases, that's why it is helpful to update them, and if need be, consult a lawyer to help update them.
DV Based AOS - Self Process vs Using Legal Services
- Thread starter Velcan
- Start date
SusieQQQ
Well-Known Member
Lawyers? ROTFL.
Britsimon
Super Moderator
"and if need be, pay a lawyer to sit still while you explain the whole thing to them, and then watch in frustration as the lawyer runs around in circles telling you that cases take 18 months to process, and then eventually print out the memo itself and update the lawyer and give it directly to the USCIS staff to help them."
There ya go - fixed it for you.
There ya go - fixed it for you.
Sm1smom
Super Moderator
What are you talking about?
USCIS support centers have nothing to do with the delayed IL the OP was talking about.
Velcan
Member
Consulting an experienced lawyer to make sure you have all memoranda up to date and to get advice on the best way to convince skeptics at USCIS is not a bad idea.
However, if you then choose to hire them, that's up to you.
SusieQQQ
Well-Known Member
It sounds like it makes sense.
Until you read the history of the AOS threads and see that almost every person who has hired a lawyer has had their cases messed up rather than improved by them (but still for a fee of course)
The reason seems to be that there are so few AOS DV cases that hardly any lawyers know what to do with them.
Even if you just look at avvo.com, there is an amazing amount of lawyer advice on DV that is just plain wrong,but at least that's free wrong advice.
Velcan
Member
A successful AOS case and hiring a lawyer is not a zero-sum game. It's not because you talk to a lawyer without necessarily hiring them that your AOS case will be messed up.
Ultimately it's up to the person to decide whether hiring the lawyer they have sought advice from is worth their money and the risk or not. I heard the story of a DV2014 selectee who inquired and attempted to convince an FO in Boston that it was ok to proceed with AOS, only for the FO to flatly reject the idea of AOS just because they were not informed. The poor fellow was so disappointed that he abandoned Had he talked to one of the very few lawyers who are familiar with DV AOS cases or sought free legal advice elsewhere, he would have probably been able to proceed with his case.
Obviously, one cannot solely rely on a lawyer's advice, they can also seek info from elsewhere. It's a matter of weighing options and deciding where odds of success are the highest and making sure one is OVERPREPARED.
I certainly wouldn't want to advise anybody to bring an outdated memorandum because (because they didn't seek advice or legal proofreading to know that that particular document has been updated or otherwise invalidated or because the area of the law has some new precedents or what not...) to a USCIS office and attempt to convince them of the urgency of DV cases only for them to be proven wrong just because they didn't get their facts right.
Talking to a lawyer doesn't necessarily mean hiring a lawyer.
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Britsimon
Super Moderator
And that is the problem....
1 million immigration cases a year. 5% are DV cases, but only 5% of those are adjustment of status cases (~2000 out of the million) and of those, the vast majority (let's guess 80%) are handled without a lawyer. So - 400 people (250 cases) a year are DV cases where a US immigration attorney might get involved.
That is why we are skeptical - and that is why we graon every time we see a lawyer is involved as they have introduced some screwup almost every time....
Velcan
Member
True, but I can't help but wonder whether there are some remote areas of the law or precedents that we may not be aware of.
One can talk to a lawyer just to make sure what they know as legal still stands as legal, before continuing on their own.
SusieQQQ
Well-Known Member
Well, the free legal advice is often plain wrong - go look at avvo for plenty examples - so am not sure how that would help. Also, strangely, most of the time the free legal advice suggests hiring a lawyer...(can't imagine why that would be...I'm sure there is no self-interest involved...)
Then..".one of the very few lawyers familiar with AOS DV". As britsimon says, for 400 cases a year spread across how many FOs, this is the proverbial needle in a haystack...even if that needle exists. Of course, judging by the cases we have seen here - including ones where the lawyers themselves actually ended up jeopardisng the visa issuance - lawyers have no problem in presenting themselves as competent to deal with DV cases even when they aren't.
If there is a remote area of the law dealing with a DV case, I'm afraid your chances of finding a lawyer who knows anything about it are even remoter...
Incidentally, your example on facts you gave may have had the FO absolutely correct. Not everyone present in the US is able to adjust status. There are enough people who do DV AOS in Boston for me to think you did not give the whole story (or maybe you weren't told it). Not sure what you meant by the person "inquired" at the FO. Why didn't he send his DS230 to KCC and inform them of intent to adjust that way?
Velcan
Member
He was planning to adjust from H1 status and had already contacted KCC which told him to act quickly, he told me he had already paid the fee as well.
But after discussion with an FO in Boston who seemed to have no clue why he needed to adjust status in such a "faster than usual" way, the FO just bluntly told him to wait just like any H1-visa holder planning to adjust status with the usual delay.
He told me the FO was even a bit rude, he decided to forget this whole DV story instead of creating a confrontation with USCIS that could escalate into being arrested for "misdemeanor in a government building"
But after discussion with an FO in Boston who seemed to have no clue why he needed to adjust status in such a "faster than usual" way, the FO just bluntly told him to wait just like any H1-visa holder planning to adjust status with the usual delay.
He told me the FO was even a bit rude, he decided to forget this whole DV story instead of creating a confrontation with USCIS that could escalate into being arrested for "misdemeanor in a government building"
Britsimon
Super Moderator
The "misdemeanor in a government building" is silly. They don't arrest you for politely explaining they have it wrong. I had the same misinformation told to me - but I calmly and politely explained the way things work. I had prepared well of course and in the end spent over an hour with the officer setting her straight about many topics. We ended the conversation on friendly terms and she even gave me a fastpass so I could come back to see them without needing an interview.
The point is - none of that needed a lawyer - it just needed a little preparation and a calm, respectful manner. If your friend can't keep his cool in that situation - then yes - he may well we wise to make friends with a lawyer since he'll be needing one very often.
Velcan
Member
Don't make the mistake of generalizing and thinking anybody can be reasoned with. And don't make the equal mistake of thinking anybody can explain themselves in a government building for an hour.
And I am beginning to have the impression that some people on this forum are generalizing whatever bad experiences happened with some lawyers into branding all lawyers "BAD LAWYERS WHO ARE THERE TO TAKE YOUR MONEY AND MESS UP YOUR CASE" which is again another mistake by generalizing things.
People are different, not every FO will have the time, the will and the patience to listen to anybody who comes in and pretend to have information the FO doesn't have.
Let's not forget why this forum exists in the 1st place: to share information and advice that can clarify CERTAIN situations.
To go from that to "you surely don't need a lawyer, you can just go and talk to an FO" is insinuating that the info we have in this forum can ALWAYS be enough to get things done, and I think that's a lie.
This debate reminds me of the debate around the need to vaccinate children in te US. Some parents read some stuff on the Internet and think they've got it all figured out and decide not to vaccinate their children, and before you know it a disease that was almost eradicated is back in force.
Let me remind you that lawyers are lawyers for a reason, if a lawyer has 35 years of experience for example, and if you come to seek their advice (WITH INFORMATION from your own research) I don't see why that is such a bad idea.
Some of us on this forum may not need lawyers, sure thing, but others may need and our failure to understand the difference is a problem.
And I am beginning to have the impression that some people on this forum are generalizing whatever bad experiences happened with some lawyers into branding all lawyers "BAD LAWYERS WHO ARE THERE TO TAKE YOUR MONEY AND MESS UP YOUR CASE" which is again another mistake by generalizing things.
People are different, not every FO will have the time, the will and the patience to listen to anybody who comes in and pretend to have information the FO doesn't have.
Let's not forget why this forum exists in the 1st place: to share information and advice that can clarify CERTAIN situations.
To go from that to "you surely don't need a lawyer, you can just go and talk to an FO" is insinuating that the info we have in this forum can ALWAYS be enough to get things done, and I think that's a lie.
This debate reminds me of the debate around the need to vaccinate children in te US. Some parents read some stuff on the Internet and think they've got it all figured out and decide not to vaccinate their children, and before you know it a disease that was almost eradicated is back in force.
Let me remind you that lawyers are lawyers for a reason, if a lawyer has 35 years of experience for example, and if you come to seek their advice (WITH INFORMATION from your own research) I don't see why that is such a bad idea.
Some of us on this forum may not need lawyers, sure thing, but others may need and our failure to understand the difference is a problem.
SusieQQQ
Well-Known Member
Well, there was someone else here who hired a lawyer who also told her she would just have to wait on the usual timeline, and if she hadn't found this forum she would have lost out on her visa, so... Yeah a lawyer may have helped, or may not, but a pity your friend didn't do a little bit of Internet searching and find forums like this. Or even just called KCC back as I am sure they would have directed him to something helpful.
While I think britsimon's concluding comment somewhat extreme - albeit amusing - I do also find it odd that your friend's choices seemed to him to be either an officer who just understood everything or a confrontation that could escalate to arrest proportions with no middle ground... and that was enough for him to "forget the whole story". How strange. Still, I wonder if a lawyer would have helped or just cost him more.
Sm1smom
Super Moderator
It doesn't seem to me like neither you nor your friend have a clue as to what the process is all about, and I'm skeptical about believing the story as told.
When did your friend approach the FO with the mind of processing "faster than usual"? Was his CN current? Had he submitted his I-485 with all the required documents including the medical exam, or he was simply making an initial inquiry? Which fee did he make? The DV administrative fee or the AOS fee? And if he was simply making an inquiry and they "told him to wait just like any other H1-visa holder", even if told rudely, I don't see anything in whatever he needed to say that could have led to being "arrested for misdemeanor in a government building" because he obviously had no clue as to what the process is to start with!
I don't see how anyone who has paid the DV administrative fee, completed the medical exam, paid the AOS fee, filed the I-485 would get to a certain stage about enquiry as to the need to complete the process in a "faster than usual way" would now give up on the dream of replacing their H1 visa status with GC. It's mind boggling that someone working in the US on a H1 visa wasn't smart enough to do some online research on what to do (which doesn't even include hiring a lawyer) simply gave up on a dream that everyone on a temporary status would give an arm and a leg for all because he feared being deported. Something doesn't sound right here!
SusieQQQ
Well-Known Member
I don't want to be funny, but I find your argument confusing. You say some people need lawyers because of a failure to understand things, etc, yet you also expect such people to be able to judge whether or not the advice they are getting is good? If they haven't been able to figure it out how do you expect them to figure out which lawyer to listen to?
There is an example below of someone not sure if they are eligible to adjust status under DV. The free legal advice is split, more than one lawyer on each side, between yes and no. How is someone who is confused about the issue to begin with supposed to figure out which lawyer to listen to - given that if they knew the answer to that question they wouldn't need a lawyer in the first place?
http://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/diversity-visa-lottery-751754.html
Also not to be nitpicky, but for blindingly obvious reasons there is no lawyer out there who has 35 years experience with DV cases.
Velcan
Member
People are different, let's not forget that. It's not because I accidentally found this forum that I may expect anybody to do the same. Don't be sure KCC would have directed him to something helpful, you don't know for sure.
People's perception of what is possible or not, what is feasible or not, where can on push the envelope or not can differ from one person to another.
That's why in society you have people who more inquisitive and adventurous, and people who find comfort in following whatever they are told is legal and possible and avoiding whatever isn't.
Some experienced lawyers, especially who have been practicing in a particular city or region for decades tend to have a way in with USCIS field offices.
I cannot guarantee this could have been the outcome, but I think a lawyer could have advised this particular case and clarified it to the USCIS field office saying: "there are guidelines and memoranda that support what this person says and I think they deserve to be heard" or something to that effect.
We should expect people to react the same way we do, and if we do them we don't understand that people are different.
SusieQQQ
Well-Known Member
Lol. Ok let me rephrase then. For the vast majority of people, those who are not going to start beating up USCIS officers and get arrested because they cannot find another way to argue their case, it is probably not worth their while to hire a lawyer. For those in the minority, I now agree with simon, in fact they should have a lawyer on retainer.
Velcan
Member
35 years of experience with DV is not what I said and I don't see why you don't see that I meant immigration lawyer in general.
Let me straighten you out here: this person could go with the one who thinks it's possible to adjust (because those lawyer are the ones who obviously think he has a chance) and talk to them, figure it out, decide whether to hire them or not, and move forward or not.
I'm sure you'd expect such a person to inquire and discover this forum, why haven't they? Right, because people are different.
Velcan
Member
This debate reminds of a recent one we had about corruption on this very forum:
There is only so much we can understand based on our opinion and conception of things.
Pretending that we see every issue as legal or not legal is pretending that there are no grey areas out there, and in my opinion that's being delusional.
As I told simon, if you think you're better off figuring things out on your own, fine. However, don't mislead other people to strike on their own if they can't. If you can't understand that people are different, then you have a problem that this obviously forum can't solve.
There is only so much we can understand based on our opinion and conception of things.
Pretending that we see every issue as legal or not legal is pretending that there are no grey areas out there, and in my opinion that's being delusional.
As I told simon, if you think you're better off figuring things out on your own, fine. However, don't mislead other people to strike on their own if they can't. If you can't understand that people are different, then you have a problem that this obviously forum can't solve.