3 years degree EB3, 140 at NSC - please advice

"Is this from VSC? NSC? or Clifornia center?"

--Good question. Actually, with this new "Bi-Specialization" drama by USCIS, most guys from the east coast may have to file 140 with the infamous Nebraska Service Center. And the corn-field farmers at Nebraska get irritated with any degree that is not "4 years" in academic duration.

I am in a similar situation. B.sc in computer science (3yrs) + 1 year pg diploma + 5 years of experience.


Labor filed with job requirement: US degree + 5 years experience. No “equivalent” verbiage used. It is still pending at BEC. It’s been there for 3 years already. Recently my attorney responded to the 45-day continuation letter with a request to amend the application. Hopefully, they will send the application form back.


I do not stand a chance to substitute experience for the degree. Labor was filed based on job advertisement that 5 years experience after degree is a must.


I am thinking of including that the degree and diploma could be combined to equate to the US degree. It would be helpful if someone with an approval can share the details of what was mentioned in the labor certification.

I was supposed to file with VSC. But it appears, my fate is running west to Nebraska.
 
Is It Possible To Change Col. 14 And 15

HI,

IS THIS POSSIBLE AT ALL TO CHANGE THE COLUMNS 14 AND 15 ONCE THE APPLICATION IS SUBMITTED.

Mine was held in Backlog centre for 3 years.

14. Masters

15. equilavent experience accepted.

I have 3 years batchlors degree and 3 years MCA.

But no wording of "equivalent" in the LCA.

Is it worth starting a new separate PERM process now.
 
GYI,

["IS THIS POSSIBLE AT ALL TO CHANGE THE COLUMNS 14 AND 15 ONCE THE APPLICATION IS SUBMITTED."?]

--Mine is a similar case.

Eduction: Bsc in computer science(3 years) + pg diploma
Experience: 5 years

My attorney checked bachelor's degree requirement on box#14. And box#15 (Special requirements/notes) was left blanks.Idea was to get it it in EB2.

LC is still pending at BEC(3 years). So, I put pressure on the law firm to get the labor application form amended to include "equivalency" verbiage in box#15. My plan is to go for EB3 (with NSC, it doesnt matter I guess).

Attorney inquired with DOL and while responding to 45-day letter she included a formal letter requesting that application should be sent back to make necessary amendment.

No response yet. Hopefully they will send the packet back when they get to my case. This appears to be standard procedure.

If your labor is not yet adjudicated, you can ask your attorney to get the application form back by requesting DOL for amendments. Remember one thing though, they do not accept any major changes to the job description or credentials. It is limited to making minor modifications.

Inspite of all that effort, I strongly get this feeling that my 140 is not going to get approved by NSC.

Good luck.
 
I tried to Amend my labor application last yr

Guys once the labor application is approved its not possible to amend it. I tried it with my last labor. The error was - instead of electrical engineering I wanted to make it electronics enginerring. and it came back saying once approved it can't be amended,

Thanks
kuku
 
Bi-specialization - Nebraska I-140's

Since east coast I-140's will be transferred to NSC, its going to screw a lot of folks who have a 3 yr degree .. My labor is still pending in Philadelphia BEC (pd March 2004) . Have 3 yr Bcom + MA(econ) + 1 yr NIIT diploma. Evaluated to equivalent of US BSc (having computer systems as a subject in Bcom helped). 8 yrs work experience. ETA 750 mentions Bsc or BA in Information Sciences , 4 yr. No damn mention of equivalency or combination in Box 14. Lawyer has obviously screwed up. Brought this to her attention (they are a top notch firm in Dc and charge by the hour and company pays without asking too much) way back in 2004 after LC was filed but she said Vermont SC does not raise much hassles with 3 yr degree so it should be ok , which I guess was true.

Its 100% guaranteed that I-140 will be denied in Nebraska based on current ETA 750. Company has responded to BEC 45 day letter way back. Is it too late to amend the ETA 750 ? Right now only options available are - amend the ETA750, or file fresh LC under PERM and if both cant be done, then its time to look for another job so i can get a fresh LC . Its pointless to wait for another 3 years to get LC and then get totally screwed at I140 stage.
 
Amending Pending LC in PPBC

I have a pending LC filed in March 2005 with the job requirements as Masters or Bachelors+ 5 years experience. I have multiple Bachelors degrees one 3 year and another 4 year degrees.

I was not aware of the single degree issue while the LC application was prepared and therefore mentioned my 3 year degree in the LC and not 4 year degree in ETA form 750-B.

I now want to amend my LC to mention that I have 4 year degree also in form ETA 750-B. The attorney says its not required and we can provide the 4 year degree evaluation at the I-140 stage.

Please let me know if this would be a problem using a different education qualification at I-140 stage than that which is mentioned in the LC.
 
Is it too late to amend?

gc_madness,

"Its 100% guaranteed that I-140 will be denied in Nebraska based on current ETA 750. Company has responded to BEC 45 day letter way back. Is it too late to amend the ETA 750 ?"

--Ask your attorney to send a letter to DOL requesting that your ETA-750 be returned back for the ammendment. Like someone said, after approval, they dont amend it. And sending in this requisition letter with 45-day letter is not a rule. DOL merely suggested that it would be the ideal time. All said, they may not consider the request at all. One reason is the mess they caused at BEC centers right now.

They are going by literal equivalency of academic duration.Its load of bull, but they are not allowing combination of degrees/diplomas/experience to equate to a Bachelor's degree.If AILA and immigration lawyers take a "case denial" as a slap on their face, and challenge USCIS decision, we wouldnt have been caught in this mess.

Where would this end? Sometimes , cases with Masters from US university is challenged by the USCIS if the candidate had used 3-year degree to get into the college here.

So, one can never undo 3-year degree. Nor can they study enough to be considered bachelor's degree holder. Never! Ridiculous!!!

Best bet is to do it with "associate degree or equivalent" requirement.
 
"Essentially, the madness at USCIS is misguided."

--True. USCIS is not just misguided but misguides everyone into believing that 3-year degree is considered a degree.A non-immigrant with 3-year degree deems it fit to combine experience/diploma/other degrees and pursues visa under professional category.

* DOL approves LCA for the applicant with 3-year degree.

* USCIS approves H1B based on that LCA and 3-year degree.

* State Department approves H1B visa based on the same approved 797 and LCA.

* Prospective employees never think of themselves(in the wildest dreams) that they are not graduates just because they dont have a degree from US university.For hiring employers , there are gazillion other factors to consider before they make a job offer. Literal academic duration is a miniscule part.

* When it comes to GC process, attorneys act like paid tax accountants and merely toss application form to the immigration department.

* Department of Labor approves petition without any problem. For crying out loud, this is the first and primary stage of the whole green card process.

So far, we see that the system has lead everyone to believe that there shouldnt be any issue with 3-year degree.

* Tadaaaa! After years of waiting and coming to this 140 stage, professors/deans of USCIS come to surprise everybody being upbeat about their lunacy in writing. "We acknowledge applicants credentials, but we need 4-year degree attained from single source. Unlike h1b, combination of degrees/experience/diplomas/certificates cannot be used to equate to B.S in US".

Howcome a degree that was deemed fit to be considered for such "combo-equivalency" become invalid all of a sudden? It is like saying "We aint sayyin you aint got nothing. But you aint". Could some immigration lawyer ,who takes pride in their talent or concerned with the lawfirm's reputation, challenge this stupidity?


"Your Attornies are the ones at fault here."

--Agreed. USCIS misguides people and attorneys act like their ushers to lead every one into the pit. We pay money, time and destroy our well built inhabitance.

If there is a policy, it must be implemented across the system CONSISTENTLY.Failing which, USCIS must use some discretion on a case-by-case basis and see if they could come up with a provision for people to amend their honest mistakes without having to loose money , time and effort they already put in place to get to whatever stage GC applicants are in.

But the eagerness to issue RFE with pathetic reasons(somebody teach these corn-farmers english!!), only proves that they are looking for some reason to deny cases. Pitiful attempt at stopping immigration.
 
"I pretty much disagree with what you are saying here."

--I take it respectfully.I am not arguing here. But really trying to understand the gist of this complicated matter.
My own case is caught in this mess.


"Nobody has anything against a three year degree."

--So says USCIS too.The issue I raised was not based on "why do they hate 3-year degree"? I was criticizing the discrepency in its interpretation.


"DOL has different rules (they allow combination of degrees/experience to get to equivalency).H-1b allows combination to get equivalency.USCIS rules are different."

--Exactly. And that is what I questioned before. Why the difference? A 3-year degree is good enough to combine with other educational course or experience for I-797,I-40,LCA,DOL, hiring corporates etc.,. But not for I-140.That too, its not been the case in the past.



"They rely on case law which says that the person needs to meet the requirements of the labor. If the labor says you need 15 years of experience, then you need 15 years of experience. If it says you need a bachelors degree then you should have a bachelors degree."

--Excellent. I wish it is carried out in the simplest way as you are saying here. A bachelor's degree is a bachelor's degree. Whether it is 3-year academic curriculum from foreign countries or a 4-year degree in US, or a 4-year degree finished in fast track of 3 year duration!!



"Since you are saying that you tested the labor market and could not find a person with a bachelors degree then they want to sponsor you.In the US a 3 year degree is an associate degree. If a US person isn't qualified for the job (ie., someone with a 3 year degree may not apply for the job because they didn't have 4 year degree) then why would you be qualified for it."

--True. But why not implement the same policy for H1B. Its the same story with LCA + H1B. Employers must prove that market is tested and failure to find qualified citizens is causing them to hire foreigners.I-797,H1B,LCA and DOL do honor the validity of 3-year degree to be combined with other credentials.Why not USCIS at I-140 level?


"I've seen many decisions from USCIS. As I've traced the rules/regulations/guidelines, I've found that they aren't the problem; it is mainly lawyers who haven't kept up with the rules/guidelines."

--If there is consistent interpretation about the validity of 3-year degree, then it is recently found WITHIN the paradigm of I-140 adjudication process.Not elsewhere. Not even by them in the past.


"Now; there is a solution; either file the labor the correct way or get an evaluation from Sheila Danzig. She has done a pretty good job of how a 3 year indian degree is equivalent to a us 4 year degree."

--When credential combination is not allowed for EB2 or EB3 category, then equating 3-year degree to 4-year degree based on credit evaluation , as opposed to academic duration, seems like the only option left.But this is not a definite shot either.

a) ETA form specifically asks for 4-year bachelors degree. Attorneys check that box. This prefix of academic duration could be interpreted "literally" by USCIS. Even if 3-year degree shows more credits than 4-year degree in US, they can still deny the case.It is not a 4-year degree after all!

b) Another problem with trying to equate 3-year degree to 4-year US degree is that there are not many evaluators out there who can come up with the same evaluation content as Sheila Danzig. If NSC accepts her evaluation the first time, case could fly in luck.If they issue RFE asking for evaluation from other agencies (which they have been doing very frequently), it puts us in different kind of peril.

I do not buy this "different rules" for I-797,H1B,LCA,ETA-750 and 140.If 3-year degree is considered valid enough to be combined , and labor certification mentions that "equivalent" foreign degree is accepted with combination of educational credentials or experience, then they better consider it valid.

Au contraire, if 3-year degree is not considered a bachelor's degree, then so be it. But let it be interpreted consistently and implemented across the system.All said and done, they can devise and implement any rule they want. But be consistent with it.

Yes, attorneys may not do their homework right and screw up some cases. But why so many cases? Most cases are specifically tailored to suit candidate's credentials. I am talking about genuine cases here. Still attorneys want to screw those cases? Majority of I-140s with 3-year degrees are either clogging up in AAO or falling into the cycle of RFEs. That puts focus on the system too. What's causing so many attorneys to go down the same path? Inconsistent policy with USCIS? Added to that, attorneys are not challenging NSC's decision either.
 
"However, you do not seem to understand the myriad of rules/laws, court cases, precedent cases that are binding on DOL and different areas of immigration and even different circuit courts where one can use a favorable court decision if they live in the correct part of the country."

--Rules/regulations/policies/law etc., differ from state to state, department to department and circumstance to circumstance. But the virtue of variation always strikes uniformity with the underlying INTENT.

If the rule says I have a right of way on red light in Maryland, and I dont in NY,I dont call it inconsistent rule. Because road conditions and traffic culture in 2 states differ and if you look at the "the intention" behind these 2 different rules, we realize consistency wrt to the intention or purpose.And that is to ensure SAFETY.

Extrapolate this example to different rules with respect to validity of 3-year degree and the variation of its implementation.Consistency in the interpretation of the policy is missing. Rather abused in the name of "discretion". I can show you few cases from this very board.

RFEs issued seem to acknowledge education + experience combination sometimes. Sometimes they say no combination is allowed.With no regard (or clue) as to how they are abusing the intent of the policy. Why do people say, "with USCIS you never know"?

"immigration laws have conflicts within the various areas and uscis memos are supposed to give interim advices/interpretations.However, much is left in the discretionary area of adjudicators. This is why you will get uneven decisions across adjudicators, service center and local offices."

--Take Yate's memo(I guess?), who said that combination of experience or series of educational certificates can be combined for EB3 category. Not for EB2. Imagine an applicant,employer and the attorney going by the Yates memo, only to be slapped down by USCIS--"What is yate's memo? We aint heard nuffin like that!!".

"Discretion" has become the "opportunity" here.


"If I was an adjudicator and I was reading these boards and people were harping about USCIS; my response would simply be that we have issued memos, guidance and if the attornies did their homework then these cases would be approved."

--I agree with you on that.

"By the way, US does accept three year degrees. They accept them from Australia, England and Quebec."

--US does accept 3 year degrees. Not just from the countries you mentioned. But also from India.I worked for five US employers so far. Reputed american companies requiring bachelor's degree for the job position.I got H1B,LCA,Labor is almost about get approved.

"They have just stated that because India has a 3 year and a 4 year degree and then masters and it is commonly accepted that 4 year indian degree is equal to us four year and indian masters is equal to us masters then how could indian 3 year be equivalent to us 4 year degree."

--This logic doesnt fly. 3-year degrees in India are predominantly aimed at faculty of science, literature, arts etc.,[B.C.A,B.sc, B.A,B.Com]. 4-year degrees are designed for Engingeering, Medical Sciences and Studies in Law (I guess it is 4 years).[B.E , B.Tech, MBBS,B.L]. Each has its own purpose. 4-year degrees are practical oriented. All are bachelor's degrees. They can be used interchangeably as long as one is not demanding a degree in particular.They have their own value in that they are graduate degrees conferred upon students by the universities.

When a job requirement states "bachelor's degree or equivalent". I do not see why it should cause anyone to go--"Hey! Your country also offers 4-year degrees, but you only have a 3-year degree! We dont have any 3-year degrees in US, so forget equating it to the 4-year degree in US!!".

"When my case went wrong; it went from anger at uscis to anger at my attorney. My initial anger was that uscis didn't believe the second evaluation; used the "matter of sea" on me to disregard second evaluation.Then I got course by course and they approved it."

--It would be very sad if they didnt. I am glad you got it.


"When it comes to uscis asking for a second evaluation. If you show Sheila's evaluation to a second evaluator and they see the methodology, they will come to the same conclusion as her. One of the evaluators here in NJ thought it was masterful work and he hadn't thought of some of these things."

--Excellent. Like I said, Sheila's option seems to be the only option. If we can get second evaluation from other agencies based on her content, case can be pushed to the verge of approval almost.


"If you really feel passionate about your position then do what millions of people do in this country and take USCIS to court. I know it takes a lot of patience and resources but that is what you should do."

--True. There are countable cases that had gone to the court.And majority of them won. Sad part is, the favorable verdict has never had binding effect on the overall system or influence USCIS to deal with "similar" type of cases in a manner that goes inline with court's verdict.

Take oregon case. "B.A or equivalent" job requirement was fought tooth and nail to be interpreted as education with combination of experience.Judge specifically said that "discretion" of adjudication does not mean USCIS can come up with its "own" interpretation to deny a case. But fools dont learn their lesson.They repeat the same garbage in RFEs. So , If I fight my case for ages, it will be in my favor. But no benefit to other cases.


Or

"Are you just going to file another labor and let uscis get away with this perceived injustice."

--Good question. I dont think I stand a chance to start the process from scratch. Its been 8 years in this country already.

I have asked my attorney to get the pending labor application back. Better put in column 15:

"Bachelor's degree in computer science from US university or 120 collegiate-level credit hours accrued in the same discipline from a foreign university."

Idea is to knock down "equivalency" of academic duration. If they deny it. AAO must approve it. If I have the patience , money and time to drag it to the court, I might. Otherwise, "salome!".
 
is it right/ acceptable

unitednations,

I noticed you are talking about your rule#6 in this forum.
Please show me some Examples/victims in this forums VSC/TSC/CSC.


Thanks,



Rule #6; people who have been approved by Vermont, Texas who got through on discretionary decision may have their I-140 revoked when it goes to 485 adjudicatioin. There is a number of examples of this that happened to people in vermont and california
 
A0001,

[I noticed you are talking about your rule#6 in this forum.
Please show me some Examples/victims in this forums VSC/TSC/CSC. ]

Rule #6; people who have been approved by Vermont, Texas who got through on discretionary decision may have their I-140 revoked when it goes to 485 adjudicatioin. There is a number of examples of this that happened to people in vermont and california[/QUOTE]

--I am not aware of I-140 getting revoked. But read some cases buried under the pile of pages on Murthy website and this one as well. People mentioned that they got RFE on education after approving I-140. I remember one case who mentioned that they got it after 1 year since I-140 was approved. Shocked, disappointed , frustrated and what not....
 
unitednations said:
One other poster contacted me and told me he was enjoying the conversation we were having in this thread. :)

--So I have become a laughing stock for the people. Who is that poster? LOL! -:)

"From what you have written; it would appeal to the masses but doesn't have support in law or precedent cases. You should ask your lawyer if you used your reasoning in an appeal; how far it would get you."

--If our corporate lawyer is capable of judging someone's reasoning power, I wouldnt have been in this mess right now.But let's see where I go with this 'degree is a degree is a degree' thing. Based on your posts , may be not too far. Spoke to Sheila as well.I got no other option.

And why does my reasoning only appeal to the masses and not to the law? It's not like I am saying "I love america. What is my crime? Give me citizenship?" -:)
 
unitednations said:
One other poster contacted me and told me he was enjoying the conversation we were having in this thread. :)

--So I have become a laughing stock for the people. Who is that poster? LOL! -:)

"From what you have written; it would appeal to the masses but doesn't have support in law or precedent cases. You should ask your lawyer if you used your reasoning in an appeal; how far it would get you."

--If our corporate lawyer is capable of judging someone's reasoning power, I wouldnt have been in this mess right now.But let's see where I go with this 'degree is a degree is a degree' thing. Based on your posts , may be not too far. Spoke to Sheila as well.I got no other option.

And why does my reasoning only appeal to the masses and not to the law? It's not like I am saying "I love america. What is my crime? Give me citizenship?" -:)

Nice talking to you. Please do post if you have any hints for those who are already in this mess and cannot afford to start from scratch.
 
I had evaluated from Sheila and also got the second one from foreignconsultants.com who was referred by Sheila . He also evaluated everything almost same as hers. Sheila mentioned few course as 6 credit hours and rest of them are 3. The other person mentioned few of them are 4 and rest of them are 3 credit hours. Every evaluvators has their own way of evaluating degress. I do not blame either of them. I do not know what went wrong here.

Anyways I am still waiting on the appeal and i do not have hope. ( Waiting on appeal because I have to get 7th year extension based on that :D

I have a question here. If I had applied 7th year extension until Jan 2008 based on my 140 appeal and if USCIS denied my appeal by lets say Jan 2007, can I still continue on my H1b until Jan 2008?( Assume that I did not have PERM pending)


"When it comes to uscis asking for a second evaluation. If you show Sheila's evaluation to a second evaluator and they see the methodology, they will come to the same conclusion as her. One of the evaluators here in NJ thought it was masterful work and he hadn't thought of some of these things."

--Excellent. Like I said, Sheila's option seems to be the only option. If we can get second evaluation from other agencies based on her content, case can be pushed to the verge of approval almost.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
July,

"I have a question here. If I had applied 7th year extension until Jan 2008 based on my 140 appeal and if USCIS denied my appeal by lets say Jan 2007, can I still continue on my H1b until Jan 2008?( Assume that I did not have PERM pending)"

--I think regulation states that h1b looses its validity when appeal is denied.You may double check with your lawyer.

It is unlikely that your appeal could get a verdict within a span of year. I read somewhere that it could take about 18 months on an average.

Instead of renewing h1b with the same employer, if you are not fed up with this process to begin from scratch and got other reasons to stay in this country, THEN look for a new job and start the process from scratch. Let the appeal continue.It should give you enough time to have PERM and 140 done thru some other employment. You can extend h1b in 3-year terms till 2006 priority dates become current! [I am not a lawyer. I just like to give free advices -:) ]


Please post the details of your labor (14 & 15 columns). Also, did you file i-140 with sheila's evaluation the first time?
 
unitednations

is it right/ acceptable

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

unitednations,

Please respond for this

I noticed you are talking about your rule#6 in this forum.
Please show me some Examples/victims in this forums VSC/TSC/CSC.


Thanks,



Rule #6; people who have been approved by Vermont, Texas who got through on discretionary decision may have their I-140 revoked when it goes to 485 adjudicatioin. There is a number of examples of this that happened to people in vermont and california
 
anilt75,

I am with a new employer but they will file my PERM only after a year. I have to relay on my appeal. As you said if it takes 18 months to process then I am safe. No I did not file with Sheila first time.
14 says ; 4 years degree MS or BS computer science
15 says: None
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Thanks July. Hope your new process goes thru to the end without any problems.


Please post the details of your labor (14 & 15 columns). Also, did you file i-140 with sheila's evaluation the first time?

You dont have to answer if you are not comfortable sharing those details.

Good luck.
 
"No I did not file with Sheila first time.
14 says ; 4 years degree MS or BS computer science
15 says: None[/QUOTE]"

Thanks for the details july140.
 
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