Going back to India

[priyagc]

Hi,

After getting GC, is anybody planning to go back to India.

I really want to know how life is in India after living here
for 5-6 yrs.


I am personally homesick, eventhough I visit India once a year. I feel liking missing something?


Is anybody in the same boat?

[woreq123]

But the problem is who can go back. You know there is kahawat in India that "jab sher ke mooh mein khoon lag jaye to use ghaas pasand nahi aati"

Hamara bhi yehi haal hai. I wish India was the # 1 Country in the world. I dream of that many times a day. But it's only a dream. May never be true. But yes India is better place to live if you have tons of money. Save here for 10 years and go back live like a prince/princess. Now technology in India coming at par with US. There is every convenience available even in smaller cities not just metros. Besides job scene in IT is better there.

[priyagc]

Even I think of the same dreams.

I am still in the starting stages of my India plans and wanted to hear and share the thoughts.

[brb2]

"Living" during visits is one thing, and living there on a long term basis is something else. The irritations starts when you wait at the bank, get the run around to get a ration card (de facto ID card), if you have children then admission, if you want to rent then the chase and "deposit" for an apartment, pushing shoving in trains, the high pollution, not so good medical facilities, status as a women (Priya?), and the list goes on. Getting rosy eyed on the base of visits is one, but to live there is something different. The reasons that made you to leave come back. Once one forms roots in the states - spouse, kids etc, one has less reasons to go back or feel homesick.

[Sba]

I agree with brb2!

I go to India every year to visit my folks. And the irritation begins usually in a week (if, that is, I ignore the aggravation at the airports).

I usually spend some time at the end of my vacation visiting my scientific collaborators and that is when things really get bad, particularly dealing with the bureaucracy. It is worse since I am a woman, usually travelling alone. I remember been asked to bring my husband/father once when I had to go to a doctor suddenly. They would not tell me what is wrong, they would only tell my "guardian"!

So my advice to priyagc: get rid of your rose-coloured glasses. Look around REALLY carefully, before you do anything rash.

[priyagc]

My experience has been a little better than the above
mentioned experiences wherein more preference is given to women than not.

I really enjoyed my stay in India ( ok with its own downsides but again it is different country so different problems).

We are the one's who need to transform it. See I now realize how outdated techonologies and methods are practised back home but you tell me can't we change a little with the US experience.

I have heard that lot of Chinese are going back and setting companies and driving employment. Maybe we can do the same. I am still arguing within myself about the pro's and con's. What are you guys/gals thinking.

[brb2]

Priya, one can't compare people going back to China with India. You need to visit Shanghai and other cities to see where China is today. With the corrupt politicians and static reforms in India, there is no progress being made. The only reason I.T. took off is that there was no Octroi naka's and government controls. The internet, off-shore offices, funds received in dollars (away from the tax department's reach) and use of educated people who were outside the purview of the labor regulations.

As far as going back and making a difference, good on you. I personally would not waste my life trying to be a crusader. Without paying bribe, one can't get a driving license, buy a house and register it, get a ration card, get a train reservation, or even get a police clearance certificate (!). You have to bribe to get your tax refund (this takes the cake!). Let alone other more complex things such as starting a company or business. It takes a lot of determination to put up with all of this. As for waiting at a bank, public transport, to fill gas, pay your bills, is something we have all forgotten for sure. One does not face any of these on holidays and it is easy to be lured in to going only to get frustration later on. However, if you find the US culture something you don't like then you will not need many reasons to go back, just enough to convince yourself that you are doing the right thing.
My 2c worth.
brb

[Mitsy]

priyagc,

First of all, please keep in mind that I'm not from India and never been there either so I don't know how the situation is over there.

However, I do feel the same way sometimes. I too go visit my home country every year and every time I come back from there, I miss home a lot. I do even think about moving back there like you do. I have a good job here, but all my close friends and family are still back in my home country. That's my biggest reason to miss home.

I think it's natual to feel more comfortable to be in the environment where you grow up. No matter how/where it is. My country's culture has its own pros and cons, just like the US does. Nobody can tell you which is the best for you. You need to decide what's important for you in your life and make a decision.

I assume that you have a greencard now. If you are really serious about it, maybe you can move there, get a job and see how it is. Get a re-entry permit before you go so that you can move back (within the validation of the permit, of course) if you want to. You can then decide which country fits you the best.

Just a thought.

[woreq123]

brb,

I think you have a very skewed opinion about India. If you go to Bangalore then you will realise how far India has come along. As far as I have seen ( I stayed in B'lore for over two years) almost every bank is fully comupterised in B'lore. There is never a wait to pump gas because SOMEONE ELSE does it for you. I saw no lines to pay electric bills or phone bills infact you just mail them just like you mail them here and very soon they will be online payment systems too all over India(Satyam is working on it). You can get Driver License online in Hyderabad and B'lore. As for bribe well I have a different view. At least you can get things done in India by paying some money to clerk. In US look at INS. They don't take bribes (looks like..... although I'm not so sure.....) and they DON'T WORK too. It takes forever just to get Green Card here (average total time is 3-4 years....which is ridiculous).

dear friend it is always easy to put blame on the weak. Rememer India is a developing country while US is a developed one. It's easy to say that in India this is bad or that is bad. But what is your role in helping the country that gave you birth, that gave you education (at a heavy cost to itself) which enabled you to come to US on yuor own, that gave you the culture you pride yourself in, that gave you good health even though millions are dying due to insanitation etc. You need to express some gratitude to your motherland!!! yes motherland!!!!!. US may be your adopted home but you will always remian Indian. You can never change the color of your skin or looks(unless you wanna get the trashy looks of Michael Jackson....).

I believe India has come a long way and it is getting better and better as time is progressing. We must all help our dear motherland in building itself. Remember that it is only in adversity that champions are created. In this sea of affluence who cares about you (unless you are Bill Gates or those Enron execs..)

Hey, but anyway good discussion guys. Lets keep this going.

[woreq123]

I guess you still are not aware of the basic things I meant. In India when someone else pumps gas for you, that someone else in NOT paid anything extra unlike US and western Europe. It's the gas station owner's responsibility there. Isn't it exciting for a change !!!!

Secondly in the recent survey conducted the most CORRUPT corporations in the world are neither in India nor China nor Pakistan nor Bangladesh but actually in the UNITED KINGDOM . Yes Sir it is UK !!!! which has the most corrupt companies in the world. You can look at the recent report that came out on the Corruption index report (search it on Google.com and see for yourself....) US is not too far behind. Imagine if you were working for Enron or WorldCom and you had lost all your life's savings in a matter of a few days then your perspective would be totally different. These countries are the richest but also where loot has official sanction in the form of crony capitalism.

As for a legal process in order to fix INS delays, well what do you expect !!!!! something from the Justice Department ????? Led by John Ashcroft ?????????????????? That's too much !!!!!! People have tried and see what they have got. Hijackers are getting visas and innocent hard working highly educated professionals are waiting in line to get their lives straightened out by the INS. you still expect a LEGAL process to fix these things. Will INS be fixed ? I don't think so. Because it is the lowest priority department in US govenrment.

[brb2]

worq123
Thanks for your comments. I am not trying to run down India nor to pump it up. You too don't have to be apologetic and defend India. We are only discussing the facts. No one should feel ashamed about the situation there. Being Indian does not mean that you have no right to discuss the shortcomings. That said,..
I had been to India recently, both to Bangalore and a rural town in that state where my mum lives. None of the automatic billing facilities you have mentioned are available to her. She has to go and stand in line at the local electricity office to pay her bill. When she visits the US on extended trips she has to get the permission of the Area Engineer to pay her 6 month advance amount. Some times if he is not in a good mood, he does not allow that to be paid. If the phone line is down she has to bribe the phone line man to come and repair it, something that should be part of the subscription fee. When my dad died, she had to bribe the local panchayat office to get a death certificate, then bribe again to transfer the house in her name. The list goes on.

Regarding India not being high on the corruption scale, Berlin-based Transparency International reports each year on the corruption index. Times of India in its editorial had this to say:

"For all those so inclined, the picture is suitably grim. At 71, in a total of 102 nations surveyed this year, India counts, as last year and the year before, among the most corrupt, barely six places above our western neighbour, with Bangladesh, fittingly enough, bringing up the rear. " You can read the report on-line, and you will find the names of corrupt Indian Prime Ministers, none of whom have been punished to date. http://www.globalcorruptionreport.org

I have lived and worked in 5 countries (including over a decade in India) and I don't think by facing the facts one is ungrateful to their "mother land", if that is what you prefer to call it. As far as repaying the debt for receiving education in India. I paid for my education having always studied in private institutions. I worked there for 10 years and paid my taxes. I don't think I owe any debt to anyone. If anything I did not get my last tax refund because I did not pay the tax broker his bribe!

That said, I don't bear any grudge against any country or system including India. Which ever country offers the best living conditions, I will be happy to live and work there.
brb

[Sba]

Thanks Brb2 for saying what I wanted to say.

You do not have to go to rural India to face the
difficulties: just try and get something done
in Calcutta. Bangalore and Hyderabad are the
two exceptions to the rule, not the norm.

And if you want gas pumped by someone else: live in New Jersey!

I do not see how one can help one's country by
refusing to face facts.

[AmericanWannabe]

See the following link for the most corrupt Asian countries.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapc...dex/index.html

[woreq123]

Friends, I never said that we must not be critical of our country even though we are from there. In fact let me add a few more things to the list of negative things like pollution, power outages, water rationing, communal violence, sati, dowry taking, bride burning, purdah, religious fanaticism, high population growth, hunger, poverty, diseases, illiteracy, corrupt politicians, bad attitude (unfortunately you guys too seem to be suffering from this disease…..), etc. etc. You can go on and on and find all the vices in Indian socio-economic and political structure. But remember some of these things exist even in developed nations albeit on a smaller scale. Yes, it is tough to get things done there. Yes you have to bribe people. But guess what you too are to blame as well. When you pay bribe to someone then that someone gets emboldened further. You force that person to fall prey to this vice. To say that “this is the system and I have to do how the system forces me to do” is no excuse. Narayan Murthy became IT tycoon in India without paying any bribe, without stooping to all the things you mentioned. He started Infosys in a garage with just 10,000 rupees, which too he borrowed from his wife. He too had live in the west (first France and then Czech/Hungary). He faced all the adversities of the system but never left his moral values and ultimately succeeded. The difference here is one of attitude. People who have a bad attitude, as most of the Indians do, are always losers in life. Great men always fight the vices and change the system. Individual action can change the system like many great Indian politicians, businessmen, IAS officers, social workers etc. have done. A lot of their colleagues are muddled with the above said vices but many have risen tall in spite of the failing system. Yes, a lot more needs to be done, but how should it be done? When we have people like brb2 in India, who think that they have paid the debt of their creation & existence by paying their way to school and college, then nothing much can happen. Let me ask you brb2, have paid the debt of having been born in India? Have paid the debt to the poor farmer who tilled the land with his blood, sweat and tears to provide foodgrain to you so you can grow up as a healthy individual, while he still finds it hard to keep his children alive? Have you paid the debt, you are under, of the Indian soldiers who are defending the borders with their lives, who have been instrumental in saving the very private schools and colleges that you went to from enemy destruction? Have you paid down the debt of your teachers who taught you the good things of life and gave you moral and technical education to be what you are today? Have you paid down the debt of all the blood, sweat and tears of the poor construction laborers who slogged to build the very private schools and colleges that you went to, which, by the way, happen to be built on Indian soil? My friend, you have paid nothing as yet. In fact you should be ashamed of yourself when you say that you paid your way thru to all schools and colleges and paid taxes etc. and now you are done. You must be done with your mom too? Are you????? I apologize for getting personal but it’s just that the whole attitude stinks. People like you can never be loyal to anybody, not even US. Tomorrow if things get bad in US then you will be the first one to run out of here instead of facing adversity.

I never said we must legalize bribe. No, it’s a bad thing. Yes, India is amongst the most corrupt countries. But you know what, the global report on corruption has a glaring omission. And that omission is about MORAL CORRUPTION levels. It is common knowledge here in US that teenage girls start taking birth control pills from the age of 13. Don’t be surprised when your teenage son comes to you one day and tells you that “dad, now I am dad too!!!!”. 50% people in US are married twice at least. So much for the family values and moral high standards!!!!. In fact it’s much worse in UK & rest of Europe. Can you sit with your mom and watch Jerry Springer, Howard Stern or MTV Spring Break. Try it. You may not be able to watch it but some day you may watch your kid on the same show. When women sleep with their bosses to get promotions then I don’t think that behavior characterizes as morally uplifting. When step brother-sisters sleep with each other then too it does not become a gift of free culture. You must know that in many apartment complexes there is a law that every child must have a separate room particularly if they are of different sex. Do you know why? Because step brother-sisters hardly have brotherly-sisterly relations with each other and they end up in bed together quite often. You must watch prime time TV in England where people have no inhibitions what so ever and want to show it all and talk it out loud even in family dramas. So much, for the high moral standing !!!!! Actually if you include moral corruption & sexual abuse into the report then UK alone would surpass the whole developing world combined. And yes, the most corrupt Corporations are UK based. It’s in the same report. Remember that these reports always have an anti-developing world bias. If you watch CNN or other channels, whenever they show something about India they never take you to Palika Bazar of Delhi or plush Bombay suburbs or Marine Drive or MG Road of Bangalore but they will show pictures of slums and cows walking on streets. Yes the latter thing is most common sight in India but it is also true that there are many areas of high development and prosperity, which are never mentioned by any foreign reporter. Their opinion is highly biased and unfortunate thing is that even we Indians tend to get going with the same. It is this very attitude which stinks !!!! and this attitude is also responsible for the whole world mocking at us and then we mocking at ourselves without any shame or guilt. No wonder foreigners came to our country and enslaved India, which during that time, was the richest and the most powerful country in the world for which Columbus set sail all the way looking for that land of riches and philosophy.

Coming to INS, I don’t know what happened in the lawsuit of 2000 but I do know that I-485 processing time in VSC and CSC has been cut down into half but for NSC it has actually gone up and for TSC it has almost doubled. You guys can verify that from the numerous trackers there are. So much for the legal remedy !!!!!!

[AmericanWannabe]

In some country, people punish criminals by
raping their teenage daughters.

[woreq123]

Go to http://www.globalcorruptionreport.org
Read all of the reports for all regions. Read it very CAREFULLY. You will notice that at many places it is written that the major cause opf corruption in poor countries is large multinational corporations paying bribes to local politicians and bureaucrats for contracts. Read Western Europe report. It shows clearly how corrupt Italy and Germany are. Public Sector corruption is widespread in Europe and politicians and corporations are also into it big time. Chancellor Kohl was indited and so was Silvio Burlesconi. Japan has always been neck deep in political corruption. Read for all regions. Bottomline is that rich countries are major source of corruption because they are the ones who have the money to pay in the first place. By not refusing to pay bribe they are an accomplice too and actually have a bigger role in perpetrating this crime.

About your views on ENTERTAINMENT !!!! I think since you moved to US from Western Europe, you would never understand what I was trying to say simply because your understanding of family oriented Asian cultures is too poor to even discuss. So it would be better if you stayed of this conversation because it was directed at my fellow Indians/Asians.

About INS, I must confess that you are probably right. As I know, NSC and TSC have deterriorated but if legal remedy worked for CSC, well good for guys in CSC jurisdiction.

[Sba]

Isn't the whole discussion getting a bit too
personal? Just like to add that I grew up in India
and moved first to Europe and then to the US,
but I agree with **** rather than woreq123.

Having seen what is standard fare on Indian TV
and in Bollywood movies I don't see how one
can say that those are better than the equally bad
programmes seen here!

I live in the US because I like doing so, and in
my opinion is that immigrants who constantly complain about the US shouldn't be here anyway.
We chose to live here voluntarily so I do not see why we should gripe abut the culture here.

[priyagc]

Its funny that people ask you why r u here if the US culture sucks.


On a another note, how are people(1st gen immigrants) coping with the challenges of bringing up their children in US.
How are they preparing themselves.

What part of the US culture do they want to immbue in their children and what parts they don't want to immbue in them( I guess its a personal question nevertheless ....)

[goodphysq]

Thanks God you guys (BRB2 and SBA) you are not in India, I just wonder what would your Mother Land will gain even if you spend your whole life there.

Dont ask what your country has done but what you have dont to your country.

Ofcourse India has its own limitations..being a developing country ( with all that population!!) sure we do have. I personally think atleast our thoughts should be what can we do to our country say...helping a school in your region building a orphan institue etc...atleast something.

Ok now some say we are only discussing..even without your discussion everybody knows what state we are in....so thanks for your discussion.

Tell me which country offers you free education till your engg..Including instution like IIT etc..if I say that you will say I have already paid my fees by working there..

One thing is for sure, irrespective of where you are born you guys will always have somting to say about your country..

Ask people here they have thier own problems college edu...loneliness....corruption etc...

So what we have in India is love and affection and we dont have to deal with divo........etc etc..

Again every country has its own pros and cons..

So when you have a mentalty, saying like I am happy where ever I have best living condition...you will be definetly a liability to the place you live...apart from paying your taxes

Thanks God our mother land..doesnt have you guys any more..

I am not sure why you guys call yourself Indians and involve with all this discussions....may be because of your look...color..etc

No hard feelings...happy living everyone...

may peace be in this world

[goodphysq]

Hats of my friend woreq123

I dont think it really matters where your are born or where you are brought up or whats your back ground but all it matters is attitude. We know that no body is going to achieve anything by discussing all this...but atleast I personally belive we should have right attitude.... which you have.....

I wish everybody had this attitude.....

My firiend..
If not Gandhiji didnt come from south africa to lead our nation to Independence...

If not there was no mother theresa..

if not our prime minister Vajpayee didn't marry and dedicated his whole life to politics...

If not we didnt have the great scientiest A P J Abdul Kalam as President ....

we should be worrying....

But India did and do have all these great leaders and Scientiest...

Defenetly we will prosper along with all other country..dont spend your time replying to all these posts..

Good Luck my friend...

[bhidu]

wow!!. This has turned into a war of words.

Both India and US have their own set of advantages and disadvantages. Both have their own problems. While corrouption is a problem in India, dealing with insurance companies in US is equally frustrating. The Indian govt. system works on bribes, but also try dealing with DMV, INS and other govt depts here. Both cases are equally painful.

The cultures in both countries are 180 deg apart. India works on mutual trust, relationships etc. In US you are a "number" (SSN) and nothing else. That is your identity and it is more important than the person assigned to the number.

So, it is of no use trying to prove that one country is better than or worse than the other. It depends on which set of problems you can live with. If you don't mind the bribes, India is a good choice. If you are ok with arguing with Insurance companies and spending your life protecting your credit history, stay in US.

As for as caring for the motherland is concerened, one will always have the special bond with their own country, as that was the country you were born in and most of your family still lives there.
One can still do a lot for their country by staying in US. Donate money to legitimate charity organizations etc... You dont have to be physically present in India to help.


My 2c.....

Cheers

[AmericanWannabe]

DMV is pretty efficient. You can get a learner's permit
as long as you pass the knowledge test in one day.
You can then get your DL in one day too as long as
you can further pass the raod test. To transfer
DL from oen state to another take usually few minutes.
No bribe. No hassle.

I personally think a 3rd world country need Westernization
to become a better one. If you look at the world map,
you 'll find this is generally true. Those who refuse to
westernize themsselves are eitehr dir poor backlward
or can only get rich because they just happen to have
somethings oil underneath themselves.

Of course, Westernization does not mean you give up
your cultural heriitages. Many countries do both
well like Japan.

[AmericanWannabe]

I used the word Westernization just like we refers F=Ma
to as Newton's Second Law of Motion. Had it been discovered
by Oldton, we would call it Oldton's Law

[AmericanWannabe]

>Of course, with the money you make in the US, you can live like >a king in India (or any other 3rd world country).

Actually, the picture is not that good. If you go back, you will not make USA money. You can live off your savings, which will slip away gradually. Secondly, it is no fun to live like a king when
others are poor unless you have the habit of showing off
in front of the poors. Not to mention that all poor folks
may ask you for help, which will definitely put you into
aawkward situations.

A traegedy just occurred to a couple in New Jewsey.
They went to their hoem country to visit parents.
They gave the husband's parents $ 10,000. The husband's
parents take care of their kid born in the USA.
Then they went to the wife's home town to visit
her parents. But they did not bring their kid,
which made the wife's father unhappy.
Then Due to some crazy reasons. The wife's
father got anry over finalcial issues . He asked also for
$10,000. But the couple said they could only give $1000.
The father lost his mind and hacked the couple to
deaths.

[priyagc]

One more reason why immigrants should think about
going back to their country and make it better.


Take a look at my post on 485 board.

http://www.immigrationportal.com/sho...threadid=59346

[priyagc]

The alt.computer.consultants does seem to have lot of threads just dedicated to H1-B's having impact on their profession i.e consulting.

But it seem silly that these people don't realize that for the past 2 yrs there are very few H1-B's coming into the market and that lot H1-B's have got into GC or EAD stages.

But, I can tell that there are hoardes of F1 students waiting to get converted to H1-Bs but who know if this industry will ever recover.

It will be intresting to see, what these people will whine about when H1-B's get converted to GC and bring down the consulting rates.

[AmericanWannabe]

The problem of similar nature occur in home country too.
In 1980s, thousands of Bangladesh immigrants in India
were attacked and slaughtered by the natives because
the local Indians think these Bangladesh took away
their business and opportunities. They not
only kill immigrant workers but also their families even
childrens (maybe the media fed me with false info
so corrrect me if I heard it wrong).

Such events also occurr in many other thrid world countries.
And conflicting side may not even be citizens vs foreign
immigrants but often two groups of people of teh same
citizenship.

No matter how bad the USA is, the citizens have not
begun to slaughter H1B yet.

[priyagc]

You conjure up some amazing stories.

First it was raping daughters incase crime is committed.
then westernization,
then the NJ family story,

then the bangladeshi story.


I personally don't think you are telling facts. Do you have a link about hacking 1000's of bangladeshi's in 80's.


Don't worry, IMHO Muslims are going to slaughter the americans(ourself included incase we get citizenship) and europians before they can slaughter anybody else.

You have seen 9-11 and as long as people follow Islam in the current form, they will always never forget US and Israel.

Go to Europe, you will see the Muslims all over the place following their weird religion and in a few years, they would want a separate country for themselves ruled by an autocrat.

I can't believe India has so many muslims even after creating pakistan exclusively for muslims.

What an idiot was Gandhi/Nehru.

Religion is another topic in itself which should not be discussed here.

[AmericanWannabe]

>You conjure up some amazing stories.

>First it was raping daughters incase crime is committed.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapc...pakistan.rape/

It was in the news all over a few month back. But
I got it wrong about relation (not teenage daughter but sister)

"The rape was apparently ordered by tribal elders as punishment for an alleged affair between the girl's younger brother and a woman from a tribe considered higher caste. "

Compared with such things, what is the big deal
if there are more teenage girl pregnancy in the West?
Not to mention there are more child prostitutes
in 3rd wordl countries.

>then westernization,

This is my personal opinion. I beliebve I am right.
For selfish-nationalistic reason, I hope my country do
that faster than other 3rd world countries though
I wish the prosperity of all countries.

>then the NJ family story.

The couple were from my hoem country and
the killings occur in my home country. It is
in the news in my hoem country but I won't post the link
because the language is not in English


>then the bangladeshi story.

I remmeber that but the event occured in 1980s.
Don't you want to deny such violent events still often
occcur on large sacle in many third world countries
but has not occurred for a long time in Western countries
(last time was holocaust in WWII).

[anandun]

Priya,

You may get some insight on this topic if you read an article called "My America" by RK Narayan (famous Indian author) on this topic.

I have attached it here for all to read and reflect.

Essentially, the decision of where to stay is based on what makes you happy.

Having a comfortable hassle-free life with all material comforts makes you happy? America is great for that.

Having a socially and spiritually enriching life with a chance for kids to develop higher values makes you happy? Pack up and head for India.

Don't allow small things like getting a ration card/telephone connection etc be a factor in this decision. You need to have a broader outlook on what it is that you want out of life to make this decision.

Good Luck!