Get a new job after GC...

[emferrari]

I know this thread is already repeated here.... but I want to make sure I get a correct answer.

I worked for company A for 5 years. 3 years of L1A visa and now I got a green card based on employment. It took 2.5 months from the filling until I received the card.

Anyway, I am being paid a salary below the market (not sure what is the one was mentioned on the I-140, but is probably the same I have now). I asked for a small raise and they declined to give to me. My wife is expecting a baby in September and I really could use a raise or change jobs to get a real market salary and have more money during her maternity leave.

I am afraid if I quit my job now the company can try to revoke it or even worse, when I apply for the citizenship it can get declined.

So, I received the GC in January, it is valid for 10 years, and what happen if I decide to quit my job in March/April and get a new one with a better pay? That will be 3 months after I got the GC.

Thanks for the advice.

[Jackolantern]

Your I-485 was approved in just 2.5 months? Wow.

As has said before numerous times, there is no specified minimum amount of time that you have to stay with the employer after the GC. However, when you apply for citizenship the burden is on you to show that you qualify for it, and you don't want things to look bad. You may get lucky and the interviewer doesn't ask anything about your employment history, but you can't count on that.

One of the most important factors is how long you worked for them since filing the I-485, not how long you worked for them overall. AC21 explicitly allows changing jobs 180 days after filing the I-485, so you should wait at least that long. While AC21 is really applicable only to job changes before I-485 approval, its 180-day condition still provides a potentially useful line of reasoning you could fall back on, but if you haven't even done the 180 days you can't use it.

So at a minimum I would say wait until at least 180 days after filing the I-485. To be more safe, wait for six months after the GC approval. But like I said, there is no specific requirement... you just have to decide what your risk tolerance is, how much you want to get citizenship and how soon, etc.

Unless you already have interviews lined up, it probably will still take you 2-3 months to find another job that pays significantly better. So anyway it likely will be almost six months after the GC that you start the new job, unless you simply jump at the first thing you get.

Don't worry about the employer trying to revoke anything. If they were paying you below market rate, they probably have other shady details that they wouldn't want to have exposed in court.

[emferrari]

Right. Yeah, I would like to start "shopping" around for a job. And I would beleive if USCIS arguments was too soon to leave the job I can always argument that we were expecting a baby and the company has declined to give me a raise. I do have this documented by e-mail with the employer.

Anyway, do you think it is worth to hire a different attorney and let him analyze the case to see if I would have problems in the future?

[Jackolantern]

Originally Posted by emferrari

And I would beleive if USCIS arguments was too soon to leave the job I can always argument that we were expecting a baby and the company has declined to give me a raise.

That is not a solid line of reasoning. If they were giving you a pay cut or taking away health benefits, that would be a different story. But you knew what the salary would be before you filed the I-485, and your wife isn't giving birth right now anyway.

Since there is no specific rule on the minimum employment period, I doubt an attorney will give you any more information than what Rajiv and other attorneys have said on their web sites. Ultimately it is up to you to decide if changing jobs soon is worth the risk to your naturalization (and to a lesser extent, the risk to your green card). You are in worse shape than most other people, because most have done at least 180 days (and usually more than a year) with the sponsoring employer after filing their I-485.

[Russ124421]

Take the job.
Many underpaid people take new jobs right after getting the GC. Its no big deal. Very few get into trouble with this as USCIS does not track what happens after the GC. Ideally the new job should be in a related field.
Practically, your GC was filed in good faith to do the job when it was filed. Practically you got a better offer and you moved on.
USCIS has approved your case adn moved on and so shoudl you.
Russ

[Jackolantern]

Originally Posted by Russ124421

Take the job.
Many underpaid people take new jobs right after getting the GC.

But most have worked a long time for the employer after filing the I-485.

Very few get into trouble with this as USCIS does not track what happens after the GC.

They don't proactively track you, but when you apply for citizenship they often do scrutinize your employment history and other aspects of your life such as your travels.

[tinyhippo]

With great respect to all posters, when the USCIS says the following:

================================================== ==
Some of you came to the United States as immigrants through a relative or through an employer. Some of you came as refugees or were given asylum status. And some of you came through other programs, like the Diversity Visa Lottery. But now that you are Permanent Residents you all share the same status. You have certain rights and certain responsibilities as Permanent Residents.

Rights:

....

To be employed in the United States at any legal work of your qualification and choosing.
================================================== ==

does not it mean that we all share the same status and we all have the right to be employed at any legal work of our choosing? We don't fall under any 'conditional residents' category, do we?

[Jackolantern]

Originally Posted by tinyhippo

Rights:

....

To be employed in the United States at any legal work of your qualification and choosing.
================================================== ==

does not it mean that we all share the same status and we all have the right to be employed at any legal work of our choosing? We don't fall under any 'conditional residents' category, do we?

Until you get citizenship, you are nothing but a conditional resident without an expiration date.

You have the right to work, you have the right to travel in and out of the US ... but those are not unrestricted rights. Travel too long too often, you can lose your green card. Work or live or otherwise do something that is inconsistent with how you got the green card, and you could lose it. For example, suppose you came here as a refugee or asylee. Then shortly after the green card you go back to the country that you fled for a two-month visit. That suggests that you didn't have a real reason to flee in the first place, unless something significant changed about the country while you were in the US, like a new government or a war came to an end.

[tinyhippo]

Originally Posted by Jackolantern

Until you get citizenship, you are nothing but a conditional resident without an expiration date.

This is a more of a philosophical statement than a technical one. USCIS has defined a term "Conditional Residents".

Originally Posted by Jackolantern

You have the right to work, you have the right to travel in and out of the US ... but those are not unrestricted rights. Travel too long too often, you can lose your green card.

This is a very good point. But this applies to all green card holders. My point was that when they specifically say that all green card holders share the same status and all have the right to be employed at any legal work of their choosing, they are not leaving out people who got their green cards via employment within the past 6 months. After all , the the title of the USCIS page that tells all this is "Now That You Are A Permanent Resident".

Originally Posted by Jackolantern

Work or live or otherwise do something that is inconsistent with how you got the green card, and you could lose it. For example, suppose you came here as a refugee or asylee. Then shortly after the green card you go back to the country that you fled for a two-month visit. That suggests that you didn't have a real reason to flee in the first place, unless something significant changed about the country while you were in the US, like a new government or a war came to an end.

Another good point. But I am not sure if you can equate this scenario with switching employer scenario.

[Jackolantern]

Originally Posted by tinyhippo

This is a more of a philosophical statement than a technical one. USCIS has defined a term "Conditional Residents".

More of a practical one, because that's how you are treated, given all the twists and turns that you have to adhere to in order to keep that residency and get upgraded to citizenship.

This is a very good point. But this applies to all green card holders. My point was that when they specifically say that all green card holders share the same status and all have the right to be employed at any legal work of their choosing, they are not leaving out people who got their green cards via employment within the past 6 months. After all , the the title of the USCIS page that tells all this is "Now That You Are A Permanent Resident".

It is expected that your words and actions made during the GC process represent the truth. Nothing is directly wrong with changing jobs quickly or visiting the country that you were seeking refuge from. Those actions are not the wrong actions per se; what happens is that those post-GC actions may make your pre-GC actions look like a lie.

Let me put it another way. Suppose you like to play basketball in the evenings after work. Your employer can't fire or penalize you for doing that, as that is after work hours and does not conflict with your employer's intellectual property or other legitimate interests (unless you are something like a professional athlete or dancer). But suppose one day you call in sick saying that your knees are swollen and are in so much pain, they have been bothering you all night and you can't get out of bed, all you can do is lie down in bed for the rest of the day. Then at 6:00 in the evening that same day, your boss sees you playing basketball at neighborhood court, and you're fired.

You had the right to play basketball just as much as anybody else; you weren't fired for basketball itself, you were fired because playing basketball exposed the fakery that happened earlier in the day.

Similarly, while as a GC holder you have the right to travel and the right to work where you want, the timing of certain job changes or the location of your travels may make your pre-GC statements look like fakery. It is highly unlikely to lose your GC over it, since for revocation the burden would be on USCIS, but when you apply for citizenship the burden is on you, not them, and denial of citizenship is much easier than revoking the green card.

[Dallas03096]

Originally Posted by Jackolantern

Similarly, while as a GC holder you have the right to travel and the right to work where you want, the timing of certain job changes or the location of your travels may make your pre-GC statements look like fakery.

http://shusterman.com/pdf/ac21-51205.pdf
In one of the answers in the context of AC21, this is what USCIS says about the intent:
As with any portability case, USCIS will focus on whether the I-140 petition represented the truly intended employment at the time of the filing of both the I-140 and the I-485. This means that, as of the time of the filing of the I-140 and at the time of filing the I-485 if not filed concurrently, the I-140 petitioner must have had the intent to employ the beneficiary, and the alien must have intended to undertake the employment, upon adjustment. Adjudicators should not presume absence of such intent and may take the I-140 and supporting documents themselves as prima facie evidence of such intent, but in appropriate cases additional evidence or investigation may be appropriate.

So if someone has worked for the GC sponsoring employer for 6 months or more before GC approval, then there is no need to fear that "pre-GC statements look like fakery" and can choose to change the job before or after getting GC.

[TheRealCanadian]

Originally Posted by Dallas03096

So if someone has worked for the GC sponsoring employer for 6 months or more before GC approval, then there is no need to fear that "pre-GC statements look like fakery" and can choose to change the job before or after getting GC.

If you were a US District Court judge writing an opinion, your words would have some weight.

Federal Court opinions have held that actions taken immediately afterwards can be used to determine intent prior. If you quit your job right after getting the GC, then USCIS and the courts are allowed to believe that you did not intend to work for the sponsor, and the burden of proof is now upon yourself to prove otherwise.

There is no hard and fast rule that says how long you must stay with your employer. This seems to be difficult to comprehend for some immigrants who seem to need clear-cut guidance one way or another. Clearly, the longer you stay with them, the stronger a case you will have.

Personally, I would not want to be in my naturalization interview with an examiner questioning my premature job switch, with only "they didn't give me a raise" as my defense. YMMV, of course.

[Jackolantern]

Originally Posted by Dallas03096

So if someone has worked for the GC sponsoring employer for 6 months or more before GC approval, then there is no need to fear that "pre-GC statements look like fakery" and can choose to change the job before or after getting GC.

What counts more than the time you worked for the employer overall is the amount of time you worked for them after filing the I-485, as the I-485 filing is when you make declarations of your intent to work for them.

[armie]

Originally Posted by Jackolantern

What counts more than the time you worked for the employer overall is the amount of time you worked for them after filing the I-485,

Your above state totally incorrect and misleading. GC is for a future job. The law does not stipulate that have have to work even a single day for the sponsoring before getting the GC approval. In fact may applicants join the sponsoring employer after the approval of GC. All that matters is how long you worked after getting the GC.

With AC-21 allowing applicants change jobs before approval and after 180-days of 485 filing , the concept of future job has been greatly muddied and is open to many interpretations.
While AC-21 has proper guidelines regarding job changes between filing the GC and getting approved (180 days with approved I-140), there is none for after approval. For this reason, it is safer to change jobs before getting GC than after getting approval.

By filing GC through an employer, you have expressed intent to work for them upon approval. AC-21 180-rule run contrary to this premise. Or perhaps, it suggest that 180 days is sufficient period for judging your intent. Yet to hear a case were citizenship was declined for changing jobs too early, seven years since AC21 came into effect, many of them who changed jobs would have become citizens by now.

[TheRealCanadian]

Originally Posted by armie

By filing GC through an employer, you have expressed intent to work for them upon approval. AC-21 180-rule run contrary to this premise.

It's not contrary to the core premise, which is that upon becoming a permanent resident you work for a US company. AC21 merely allows you to switch who you intend to work for, but doesn't relieve the alien of the requirement of intent to work for someone.

[Jackolantern]

Originally Posted by armie

Your above state totally incorrect and misleading. GC is for a future job. The law does not stipulate that have have to work even a single day for the sponsoring before getting the GC approval. In fact may applicants join the sponsoring employer after the approval of GC. All that matters is how long you worked after getting the GC.

That is not all that matters. The time worked for them after GC is more important than the time worked for them after filing I-485, but the time you worked for them after filing the I-485 is also important, and more important than the overall time which includes pre-I485 filing.

With AC-21 allowing applicants change jobs before approval and after 180-days of 485 filing , the concept of future job has been greatly muddied and is open to many interpretations.

It is indeed muddy. Eventually there may be a court ruling or USCIS memo that defines what is a minimum reasonable amount of time to work for the employer after GC approval.

If they are going to be consistent and reasonable about it, in particular to be consistent with AC21, I would expect it to be the latest of:
a) 180 days after filing the I-485, if you were employed with the sponsor at the time of filing
b) 180 days after you started working for the original sponsor, if that start date was after filing the I-485
c) 180 days of working for the new employer since your latest pre-GC AC21 job change

But until there is such a ruling or memo or law, changing jobs within the first few months after approval puts you at risk of falling on the wrong side of the line wherever/whenever it is defined.

Yet to hear a case were citizenship was declined for changing jobs too early, seven years since AC21 came into effect, many of them who changed jobs would have become citizens by now.

Some on this board were hassled in the citizenship interview for changing jobs quickly after GC approval, and they prevailed only after putting up a strong argument for why they changed jobs at that time (one had a pregnant wife and the employer was removing health insurance, for example). Although those who were hassled were approved in the end, one thing they had in common was working for a long time for the employer after filing the I-485 (all more than a year, if I remember right). The original poster in this thread does not have that amount of post-I485 time with the employer.

[armie]

Originally Posted by Jackolantern

But until there is such a ruling or memo or law, changing jobs within the first few months after approval puts you at risk of falling on the wrong side of the line wherever/whenever it is defined.

I am not sure such a memo will have any retroactive effect. If someone changed jobs back in 2004, they can't tell him/her in 2009 to go back to the sponsor and work for few more months. There might be guidelines for future conduct.

There is lack of clarity with regard with pre-approval job changes using AC-21 as well. Some lawyers recommends informing USCIS pro-actively about job changes, other suggest respond when RFE on employment is issued.

[Jackolantern]

Originally Posted by armie

I am not sure such a memo will have any retroactive effect.

Hopefully not. But they have done such retroactive things before, like the 1996 law that retroactively reclassified various minor crimes as deportable offenses.

Secondly, it doesn't have to be retroactive per se in order to affect people who already changed jobs. The requirement to have the intention to work for the sponsor on a permanent basis was always there; a court ruling would simply be a clarification of a rule that already existed, not a retroactive imposition of a new rule. While they almost certainly won't go to the extent of revoking citizenship for those who already naturalized, they will apply the ruling to new applicants for naturalization. By that time, if you already left the job post-GC, it is too late for you to change the situation.

[phoneix123]

I am also in te dilemma to change jobs. I got my GC on Nov07 and will be switching the job in MAY08. Interms of days I will be completing 150days only.
I did work for my GC employer for 3years and close to 32 months after the 485 was filled. Not sure whether I am taking the right decision, but with some changing scenario the offer I got is good and cannot wait for one more month to technically complete the unwritten rule of 180days or 6month period. Please advise.

[Jackolantern]

5 months post-GC and more than 30 months post-I485 filing? Looks like a very low-risk job change to me, but I am not the one taking the risk ... you are.

[phoneix123]

Thanks Jack. I will take your comments in a positive way and move in that direction.

[MIMC]

I've decided to change jobs almost one year after I485 and over 6 months after GC approval. My question is: Do I have to inform USCIS of the job change? I know I have to inform of address changes, but not sure about job changes.

thanks

[Jackolantern]

Originally Posted by MIMC

I've decided to change jobs almost one year after I485 and over 6 months after GC approval. My question is: Do I have to inform USCIS of the job change?

No, you don't need to tell them anything about your post-GC jobs, except if/when you apply for citizenship you'll have to list your most recent 5 years of employment. But your employers may report your details to them.