Leaving the US as a PR; Naturalization concerns

[shemous]

I just received my Greencard and I'm having to go back to my country of origin for 10-11 months to finish my education (I have one year left in my program and US universities wouldn't accept all of the 3 years' worth of credits I'd accumulated).

I understand that for the purposes of my Greencard, I can be out of the country for less than a year without having to file a re-entry permit for my return.

I also understand that for purposes of naturalization, I should return to the US within 6 months.

I have also been given what seems like good advice that I should apply for a re-entry permit before I leave, even though I will be gone for less than 12 months, to show my intention to return to the US and not intending to abandon my status.

I'm planning to come back for a visit within 6 months.

My question is: should I apply for a re-entry permit, then leave for 5 months, return for my visit, then apply for another re-entry permit for the next 6 months? (fees are about to go up...that would add up to about 800 bucks!) Is that the best thing to do? I'd like to avoid paying 800 extra dollars for these re-entry permits, but I'd also like to keep in status toward getting naturalized.

Thank you so much for all your help.

SEHMUZ

[LucyMO]

if you are planning to come back within 6 months, do not bother with reentry permit. It's a waste of money if you are not going to be gone for more than a year. Absences of less than 6 months will not interrupt your naturalization timeline.

Don't forget to obtain an SSN, State ID, ties to the US.

[shemous]

Thanks for your help, LucyMO.

So It's not going to be a problem for naturalization even though I'm going to be coming back for a week or so within 6 months and go back to Turkey for my last semester and come back within 5 months after that visit for good?

I'll be coming by myself for the first visit. Do you think I should tell the officer at the airport that I'm just coming for a short visit in order to retain my natz timeline? Should I tell the officer if he asks why I was absent for 5.5 months that I was studying in Turkey and I could also show him a document I will get from school? I think my next visit, 11 months from now, shouldn't be a big problem in terms of getting into the US since I'll be coming with my wife and son who are both US citizens.

I have a bank account here and my wife and son are American. My mother-in-law will still be here living where we live now which will still be our address in the US. Also, we'll be applying for graduate schools in the US. I don't think there are many other connections other than these. On the other hand, I do have a SSN and can obtain a state ID if so necessary.

One more question... We live in Ann Arbor, MI now and I was planning to go to NY for my short visit. Do you think that might possibly be a problem? Man these people turn you into such a freak!

Thanks a lot for your help again.

Sehmuz

[shemous]

Anybody there to help?

[shemous]

I'd really appreciate it if you wrote me back LucyMO, or anybody with knowledge. It's very urgent.

Thanks,

Sehmuz

[boatbod]

Originally Posted by shemous

Thanks for your help, LucyMO.

So It's not going to be a problem for naturalization even though I'm going to be coming back for a week or so within 6 months and go back to Turkey for my last semester and come back within 5 months after that visit for good?

Yes, its going to be a problem. Making short visits to the US absolutely DOES NOT preserve your continuous residence for naturalization purposes.

Originally Posted by shemous

I'll be coming by myself for the first visit. Do you think I should tell the officer at the airport that I'm just coming for a short visit in order to retain my natz timeline? Should I tell the officer if he asks why I was absent for 5.5 months that I was studying in Turkey and I could also show him a document I will get from school? I think my next visit, 11 months from now, shouldn't be a big problem in terms of getting into the US since I'll be coming with my wife and son who are both US citizens.

Uh no, I don't recommend telling the officer at PoE that you are only "visiting" the US. Remember that an LPR is supposed to be RESIDENT here.

Originally Posted by shemous

I have a bank account here and my wife and son are American. My mother-in-law will still be here living where we live now which will still be our address in the US. Also, we'll be applying for graduate schools in the US. I don't think there are many other connections other than these. On the other hand, I do have a SSN and can obtain a state ID if so necessary.

This is good, because it does give you some evidence to prove that your studies abroad are intended to only be temporary. In fact, some people have had success convincing an IO during the naturalization interview, that they did not break continuous residence, even through they were studying abroad for 8-9 months. That doesn't of course mean you too will be successful, but it does mean there is some hope.

[shemous]

Thanks, boatbod.

It's actually very confusing to me. LucyMo said it is going to be fine, and you for the second time are saying it's going to be a problem. This makes it really hard for me to make my decision about my plan. I'm really grateful for you help, but, you know, It's a very difficult situation for me.

Could you please answer this?
My question is: should I apply for a re-entry permit, then leave for 5 months, return for my visit, then apply for another re-entry permit for the next 6 months? (fees are about to go up...that would add up to about 800 bucks!) Is that the best thing to do? I'd like to avoid paying 800 extra dollars for these re-entry permits, but I'd also like to keep in status toward getting naturalized.

If you feel that you understand exactly what my situation is, could you tell me what to do? If not, please ask me whatever you need to know in order to advise me about what I should do.

I really need to make my decision soon, bc I'm leaving so soon and the fee for re-entry permit is increasing cruelly.

[shemous]

Thanks, boatbod.

It's actually very confusing to me. LucyMo said it is going to be fine, and you for the second time are saying it's going to be a problem. This makes it really hard for me to make my decision about my plan. I'm really grateful for you help, but, you know, It's a very difficult situation for me.

Could you please answer this?
My question is: should I apply for a re-entry permit, then leave for 5 months, return for my visit, then apply for another re-entry permit for the next 6 months? (fees are about to go up...that would add up to about 800 bucks!) Is that the best thing to do? I'd like to avoid paying 800 extra dollars for these re-entry permits, but I'd also like to keep in status toward getting naturalized.

If you feel that you understand exactly what my situation is, could you tell me what to do? If not, please ask me whatever you need to know in order to advise me about what I should do.

I really need to make my decision soon, bc I'm leaving so soon and the fee for re-entry permit is increasing cruelly.

[boatbod]

First off, I will make the observation that normally I hang out in the "citizenship" forum, and have been a regular contributor there for more than a year. Whilst I don't pretend to have all the answers to every N-400 problem, I have had the benefit of seeing quite a few similar cases being reported.

So should you categorically rely on my advice? Of course not. This is a free forum, and most people here (including me) are not lawyers, and have no formal training in these matters. Shared experience is all that any of us have to offer.

With that in mind, my advice is that you probably do want a reentry permit if you plan on trying to convince USCIS you did not break continuous residence while you were studying abroad. I understand that you don't need one to reenter the US if you are away less than a year, BUT it proves your up-front intent to make your trip abroad temporary in nature.

Secondly, be aware that USCIS does appear to look favorably on overseas study, especially in situations where some of the student's family remains behind in the US. The name of the game is proving you have maintained strong ties to your US residence. If you can show that, you can probably overcome the "presumption of a break in residence" when your trip exceeds the 6 month cutoff. (The 5.5 month thing is a red herring, because any IO worth his salary can see your intent is to study abroad for 'x' months - breaking the period into smaller trips isn't going to hide that fact)

[jack144]

I think if you can get a reentry permit, that is the safest. But logistically, it involves time and money.

I don't think there is a major problem if you are come back every 6 months -- cause, that shows your intent is to maintain status. Studying overseas does not mean you have overseas as your residence, just like people studying in US for say two yrs are still considered non-immigrants and they have a permanent home somewhere else. So if I were you, I wouldn't worry so much.

[boatbod]

Originally Posted by jack144

I don't think there is a major problem if you are come back every 6 months -- cause, that shows your intent is to maintain status. Studying overseas does not mean you have overseas as your residence, just like people studying in US for say two yrs are still considered non-immigrants and they have a permanent home somewhere else. So if I were you, I wouldn't worry so much.

I think you are confusing common sense with USCIS reality. This sort of thing shouldn't be a problem if you follow the letter of Continuous Residence law as defined in 8.CFR.316.5, however, I'll say it again, that is NOT how USCIS typically adjudicates cases where people make multiple "visits" to the US simply to avoid breaking their residence. There are exceptions made for students, and some of those are spelled out in the link I've referenced above.

[shemous]

Hey boatbod,

Thanks a lot for you help, really!

In the meantime, I've sent my I-131 application to the USCIS.

So should I not come within 6 months anymore? I mean, is it just the same to come in 11 months since you said short visits do nothing to retain your natz timeline?

Also do you know anyting about how long It should take for me to hear from USCIS about my I-131?

Now, can you tell me again how long It will be before I can apply for natz?( I got my GC on June, 19th 2007).

Thanks so much for your help again.

Sehmuz

[shemous]

Boatbod?

[boatbod]

Originally Posted by shemous

So should I not come within 6 months anymore? I mean, is it just the same to come in 11 months since you said short visits do nothing to retain your natz timeline?

Your call, not mine. The whole thing depends so much on the IO at your (future) natz interview that it is impossible to predict with any degree of certainty.

Originally Posted by shemous

Also do you know anyting about how long It should take for me to hear from USCIS about my I-131?

No. I traveled extensively prior to naturaliztion (484 days if I recall correctly), but all of my trips were under six months, followed by 6 months back in the US, and so I never filed for an I-131.

Originally Posted by shemous

Now, can you tell me again how long It will be before I can apply for natz?( I got my GC on June, 19th 2007).

Assuming you don't break continuous residence, you will become eligible 90 days prior to 6/19/2012 (5yrs) or 6/19/2010 (3yrs) if you are married to a USC.

If you break residence, then it will be 4yrs+1day from the date of return from the trip that breaks it.

[shemous]

I read 4 years+1 day rule is 2 years+1 day for people married to US citizens(me) on this link 8.CFR.316.5 you sent earlier on this thread which pretty much makes the timeline as long as It will normally be if I don't break my continuous residence.

Know anything about this?

[shemous]

Nobody knows about it?

[boatbod]

Well you already got the source of the material, so there isn't much more to add. The 4yr+1day rule is uncommon enough, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone mention a 2yr+1day variation. Not saying it doesn't exist... merely that it is a rather rare corner case.

[shemous]

But it doesn't sound right to me that my timeline won't change(3 years in total either way).

It makes sense that 2 years+1 day is less common than the uncommon 4 years+1 day rule, because I believe there are fewer of us, PR through marriage to a US citizen, than other PRs through other ways.

There must be a trick about this rule. Has anybody ever experienced/known somebody who experienced this before?

[shemous]

Anybody there to help?

[shemous]

I need help. Somebody please help me!

[shemous]

Yo!

[shemous]

Getting concerned...

[PraetorianXI]

Originally Posted by shemous

Getting concerned...

Get a lawyer so you can get your questions answered... www.ailalawyer.com

[Jackolantern]

The 2 years + 1 day rule is for marriage-based green card holders who broke their continuous residence. 4 days + 1 day is for others (unless they meet one of the other exceptions for faster citizenship, like serving in a war for the US military, etc.).

[Jackolantern]

Originally Posted by shemous

So should I not come within 6 months anymore? I mean, is it just the same to come in 11 months since you said short visits do nothing to retain your natz timeline?

There are two issues going on: 1. Preserve the green card 2. Preserve continuous residence for naturalization. Although similar, those two have somewhat different criteria.

You should still limit each trip outside the US to under 6 months. Going over 6 months on a single trip automatically puts you in a hole where you are presumed to abandon residence, then the burden is on you to prove otherwise.

Multiple trips of 5.5 months doesn't mean you are safe, but at least it shifts some burden back on the immigration officer. You are likely to be able to take 2 or 3 trips of 5.5 months each and still keep your green card; it is for citizenship where they scrutinize it more closely and are likely to interpret the multiple trips as one big long trip, breaking the continuous residence.

But you also have a different problem. You recently got a green card ... how soon are you planning to leave the US to resume your studies? Leaving for a long trip shortly after getting the GC might be seen as not having established residence in the first place; they might count your US residence as starting from the day when you came back from studying. Are you in the US now? Have you been in the US since your GC got approved? If not, do you have the option of postponing your studies for 4-12 months?

[shemous]

Thanks Jackolantern,

I'm in Turkey now. I left on the 22nd of August. I got my GC on June, 19th.

I applied for reentry permit before I left the US.

I don't know whether I should go for a week to the US during my semester break in February or not. I'm not sure if that will make a difference.

If I break my residence, according to the 2+1 rule, I should be totally fine which doesn't make any sense to me. Because, you know, that's about how long it will take if I don't break it. The only thing that seems like it might be a problem is for them to think I abondened my residence which I tried to prevent by applying for a reentry permit.

What do you think?

[Jackolantern]

Was your reentry permit approved?

Reentry permit preserves residence for the purpose of keeping the green card, but not for naturalization purposes.

As far as the 2 year + 1 day rule is concerned ... that is for people who already established residence in the US before leaving on the long trip that broke the continuity. Because of leaving the US so soon after the GC, they might say your residence wasn't established until the time you came back after your studies. In other words, for you your eligibility date might be 3 years since returning, not 2 years + 1 day.

See this other thread for an example of what I am talking about:
http://immigrationportal.com/showthread.php?t=262926

[joeie2000]

anyway shemous, you really do not need all that re-entry permit, first of all, you need to calm down and relax alittle bit, congrats meanwhile on your greencard, i have a friend who got her greencard a year and half ago, she moved back to her home country to leave with her husband a month after, she comes in before the expiration of the 6months, she's been doing this for like a year and she is total fine when it's time for her to naturalize, she'll move back and do what she needs to do, so as long as you come in before the expiration of 6months, you really do not need all the re-entry permit, she didn't apply for one, because there is no need for it, honestly stop worrying so much, but if you doubt consult an attorney.

[shemous]

Well... I did get a letter from USCIS saying they are processing my application, but I haven't yet received an approval on that.

I hadn't heard about this 3 months rule before I left the US. It does kind of suck, because I lived in Michigan for about a year before I got my GC which means nothing to them, but living there for 3 months after getting the GC means everything.

After all, should I come to the US for a week before I'm out of the US for 6 months, or should I just not botter since it won't make a difference and enjoy my stay here?

Thanks

[shemous]

Jackolantern?