Renting an apartment by "foreigners"

[arizonian]

I want to rent an apartment and filled the application. I marked "Not a US citizen" in the application. I got the following e mail from the manager.

I see where they are coming from, and while I have provided all the documents that they requested, I was offended by it. I want to know if any of you have had similar experiences, and what you think about something like this.

Can they legally request the immigration documents?

Dr. XXX,
Good Afternoon!!
On the day you come to Move-In, I will need to make copies of your passports and you and XXXXX will have to complete a Supplemental Rental Application for non-US Citizens.
The purpose of this form is:
1.) to give you the option to furnish information about an emergency contact person for you in your home country;
2.) to verify that you are lawfully in the United States;
3.) to determine whether your right to be in the U.S. expires during your Lease Contract term; and
4.) to enable us to better cooperate with government officials in the performance of their duties, when requested.
Have a Great Day and Weekend!!
XXXXXX

[AmericanWannabe]

I just took a train trip. The last one befire this was 3 years ago.
Nowadays, you need to present a phot ID to buy a ticket.
and they do not sell any open-time ticket anymore.
The ticket has a departure time and you have to board
the train at that time

[arizonian]

Originally Posted by AmericanWannabe

I just took a train trip. The last one befire this was 3 years ago.
Nowadays, you need to present a phot ID to buy a ticket.
and they do not sell any open-time ticket anymore.
The ticket has a departure time and you have to board
the train at that time

So a drivers license should suffice. Are they asking for you passport?

[arizonian]

Originally Posted by ****

Quite frankly, I would tell them to shove it...
They have no right to ask for these things. Period. If they deny an apartment because of not giving these things to them, I would sue them for discrimination.

I was inclined to do so, but I am moving in a month or so and the "denial" of apartment secondary to not filling paperwork according to "policy" would have been more than inconvenient.

However, I do intend to follow up on this, and hopefully get them to change their policy. Do you think that this would stand up in a court of law? Additionally, would there be an organization willing to help me follow this through ? ACLU?

[yeppo]

Absolute BS. I would never go near such a place. Who do they think they are USCIS or what. Which state is this ?

[arizonian]

Originally Posted by yeppo

Absolute BS. I would never go near such a place. Who do they think they are USCIS or what. Which state is this ?

Texas

[kmnalluri]

Originally Posted by arizonian

Texas

I have been staying in Texas for the last 6 years and stayed in 5 different apartments and was never asked for any doucment related to immigration. All they need is the drivers license and the pay stubs. May be it's some kind of new rule for the property you are renting.

[yeppo]

Texas !!! Hmm that explains it.

[TheRealCanadian]

Originally Posted by arizonian

Do you think that this would stand up in a court of law? Additionally, would there be an organization willing to help me follow this through ? ACLU?

ACLU is definitely the way to go. I could see a civil rights lawsuit, or the threat of one.

[LCBEFORETROGRES]

This is illegal and is called "untra vires" meaning acting beyond ones authority.You can file complaint with HUD- check google search for "Fair housing Act" or ACLU as some other members have suggested.This is obvious discrimination based on ones nationality- not acceptable.
I was once turned away from a 2 bed room apartment saying that my 4 month old baby is like an adult, and will be counted as a 5th member and law does not allow more than 4 people in a 2 bed room apt.When I contacted the HUD they called the housing guys and they promptly gave me the 2 bedroom.I knew very well that I was turned away initially because I am an Indian of brown skin, not a good neighbor in the 99.9 % caucasian community! So don't give in to these unfair practices at all.

[pralay]

Originally Posted by vitalsigns

This one is a legal requirement. He has no knowledge whether you are here legaly or not unless you prove it.

I don't know about other states (especially border states like TX, AZ, NM), but in California there is no legal requirement like this - to ask for the proof of someone's immigration/citizenship status in USA. I never saw/heard any landlord asking for it. In general they check three items -

1. Credit history (to make sure the person will pay rent). Some landlords increase security deposit (double or more) if there is no credit history (applicable for fresh new immigrants) or have backruptcy record.

2. Income (again, to make sure person will be able to pay rent).

3. Background check (to check criminal history).

Some landlords ask for references too. Some ask for past rental history.

Even though there is no legal requirement for asking immigration status, but I am not sure if CA law actually prohibits landlords from asking it.

[Myxomop]

Originally Posted by arizonian

1.) to give you the option to furnish information about an emergency contact person for you in your home country;
2.) to verify that you are lawfully in the United States;
3.) to determine whether your right to be in the U.S. expires during your Lease Contract term; and
4.) to enable us to better cooperate with government officials in the performance of their duties, when requested.

XXXXXX [/I] [/SIZE]

I do not see discrimination here, but it looks like they are acting beyond their authority. I can see an argument made in favor of #3, but they have no business, in my view, to request the rest of it.

By the way, in the late 90s I was getting a 30-year mortgage, and the bank wanted to see my PR card. I do not know if it was legal to ask for it, but I certainly did not think of it as discrimination.

[labordrags]

I am not sure about the states you guys live in. I live in NY and when I rented an apartment, I had to show them the copy of my H1 while renting the apartment. They didn't allow me to rent a place without having a xerox copy.

Hope this helps to bring the the burning fuel under control.

But in other side, when I rented apartments in other place within NY, they didnt ask me for the legal status or the copy of my H1B.

So in summary, Yes, they can ask for your legal papers.

[labordrags]

Originally Posted by ****

That was illegal.
Well, they can ask for anything, as they have done in the OPs case. It is still illegal.
This is not different than renting to white people only, or charging one category of people higher prices. Discrimination is discrimination. There aren't different categories of discrimination. Asking people for different things, just because they are different (different nationality, different race, what-have-you) is illegal.

I dont think its Illegal, and if it is, I am ready to drag them to court since my legal status was stripped off. Please provide me anything that can help me to establish whatever they did was illegal.

[labordrags]

Originally Posted by ****

Well, it may depend on the laws in the state.
I just looked up the laws here in CA:
http://www.dca.ca.gov/legal/landlor...crimination.htm
And the definition of discrimination in this context:
http://www.dca.ca.gov/legal/landlor...#discrimination
"discrimination (in renting) - denying a person housing, telling a person that housing is not available (when the housing is actually available at that time), providing housing under inferior terms, harassing a person in connection with housing accommodations, or providing segregated housing because of a person's race, color, religion, sex, sexual orientation, national origin, ancestry, source of income, age, disability, whether the person is married, or whether there are children under the age of 18 in the person's household. Discrimination also can be refusal to make reasonable accommodation for a person with a disability."
Asking for the H1 would fall under harassment, and under discrimination based on national origin.
But again, this is state law, so you would have to check if that applies in NY as well.
During my search for the law, I have seen a website that indicates that not all states protect agains discrimination based on sexual orientation, for example.

There you are, now that NY does it, it ask for the legal papers, now you are saying its legal, before it was illegal on your own word.

I request you, since your words make some influence to this thread, please dont respond to the question based on your own personal experience. It may give you joy and make you popular, but it doesnt welcome other.

[labordrags]

Originally Posted by ****

I don't know the laws in NY, nor do I care about them. I am not here to do your homework...

As I have said in my first post on this thread, a landlord does not have any business asking for such stuff. If they do, I would laugh in their face. Even if it would not be illegal in a specific place, I would not do business with such a landlord. In CA, it is illegal, in other states as well, but if it is illegal in your particular state is something you have to check yourself. Geez, I have other things to do than to check the laws of 50 states. I do in fact have a life.
Maybe you should ask the one guy here who seems to have a lot of time on his hands to search subscription-based services for court cases from 20 years back.

America is all about 50 states, I dont have to tell you that. (it could be an iq in your citizenship test) NY does, for some apartment complex it a passed rule, and in some it just not. I am not asking you to do the homework. I saw your previous post, and you were out of control, based on what you see in CA you assumed its the same in the whole America.

what you gonna do after laughing in their face, you dont wanna show papers, you wont get apartment. Whatever you are saying is good in paper but not in reality. Now, first you said you dont know anything about other states, and in this particular thread you are AGAIN saying its illegal in other states as well. (You might wanna re-consider your usage of language without getting confused). I am not asking to drag out your life and go check on all 50 states, I feel for you, but the info that you are spreading is not based on fact, but ONLY assumptions. Give me the name of the guy, coz there are more than 100K register users, and I will make sure to ask that person about it. (WHO KNOWS BETTER)

[labordrags]

Originally Posted by vitalsigns

You (****) will go to ANY extent to prove your wrong right. Quite remarkable. Asking for H1 on a deal based on a contrct between a landlord and a tenant is a harassment - what a fascinating news!

Please accept the fact that you lost the battle this time. Asking for Legal papers is not harrassment at all. Its quite famous in here, I live in NY, not in CA, and would lay out my papers anytime if they ask for, what I have to lose, nothing...........

[labordrags]

what happens when the rental office ask for your legal status, if you are illegal, can you still drag their sorry asses to the court? I dont think so. If you are not legal in this country, you have no rights to live here, you are illegal anyways, so the rules in asking the legal paper work is good, thats at least what I can see in New York.

[labordrags]

Originally Posted by ****

No, state laws apply to all rental complexes in the state.
...

Again, you dont know the rules in New York, I mean New York, not CA or VA. I rented few apts here, where one ask for legal papers, other didnt even bother. Now if the state laws apply to all rental complexes, then why the others didn't bother asking the same papers?

Well, not sure if I should have asked you or no. But I will not expect your answer as "I dont know".

[labordrags]

Anybody living in the US, legally or not, has the same protection under US laws. Illegals can of course go to court. The courts don't care about the legal status of a person. Everybody is equal under the law...

---I know what you saying here. Anyone can go to court, I am not denying the fact that they cant go to court. And yeah, court dont care about their legal status. BUT those who are illegals, they fear to go to court, thinking that what happens if they ever face this problem if court asks for their legal status. Fear of getting deported puts them away in knocking court doors.


CIS and ICE care about the legal status of a person, but the courts, even if they learn about the legal status or lack thereof of a person, are not allowed to give such information to CIS or ICE.

Laws that require officials, e.g., teachers or doctors, to report illegals to CIS or ICE have repeatedly been struck down as unconstitutional.

But besides, the issue here is not if somebody is illegal or not, the issue is that a private entity, e.g., a landlord, can not make a certain legal status a prerequisite for an action.

---Again, in NY its legal. If you think its illegal, and they are not following the law, why dont you come down here, apply for the rent, and when they ask for your legal papers, drag them in court. I will make sure I will provide you the airfare and your stay till the case gets settled. I am dead serious, we will get few pieces together when you will be an ultimate winner.

[labordrags]

Originally Posted by ****

State laws apply to the whole state. Companies can not pick and choose.
Furthermore, there is a federal law that applies in all 50 states.
It is the other way around. The landlords that didn't ask followed the law, the ones that asked for the papers probably did so illegally. While it probably was illegal, a lot of companies get away with it because people don't know their rights, or are not willing to fight for them. If you are willing to give away your rights...I have been on both ends of the issue, although not in the US, i.e., I have both rented and was a landlord. Yet another reason why I will never again get into the rental business...

I would not fight against them, as I need a roof above my head. If you are willing to win the battle, I again ask you to come visit me, and we will both go to the rental office, you apply for the rent with $25 application fee, let them run your credit score, and we will wait another day for them to get back with us. Once you are cleared and they offer your the space, at that time, when they ask you to show the proof of your legal status ( I assume you look like typical asian or any other native who is neither black or white also your accent usage, well NY does varities of accent, so you may get away with your accent, but for the color of your skin, even you put yourself in big cloak, they will notice you are not american), then we will go to the court and win the battle - that way all Yankies fan will be happy for you that you finally are the one who put this discrimination in trash. You will shine in NY times, wall street will be all over you, you will be famous... you wanna take a chance, if yes, let me know, otherwise dont stay there hiding and shower your words - I will do this, do that, it is good in writing, not in real life challenge.

[labordrags]

I am living in CA and have no intention to move out of this state. If I were to encounter such a practice in CA, you can bet that I would immediately sue their a**es off. I love big paydays.

---I am not asking you to move away from CA, just to get the big paydays, why dont you take a trip for couple of days??? You dont have to move in here, just few days, please.... we will share the big apple this time. Are you willing to accept the offer?

[labordrags]

Originally Posted by ****

No, what for? I don't play such cheap games. I don't pretend to do something, like moving to NY, when I don't. The ACLU can help you prove discrimination, if necessary. You don't need me for that. I fight only for myself.

Huh? I didn't get that. Are you saying that there is only one apartment complex in the town where you are? That must be a really small town then. Or are you saying that the company only owns one apartment complex? If that's the case, you could just move to another one across town, that is owned by somebody else.

There are many apartment complex in here, but the one I live is close to my work, and I love it. Thats the reason I dont want to go anywhere else.

Well, if you dont want to come down here, thats fine. But I would have made everything sure that your stay would be enjoyable. Its not about games, its all about your fame. I am not looking for any legal help. I was happy to show them my H1B when being asked, as I feel proud to be an immigrant. I thought you were interested in making big pay, thats why I was showing you the way. Well, now it seems like you are defering it, its all good.

Again, the thing is if you live in NY, they may ask you for your legal status, and this is not discrimination. (unless otherwise proved from court)

[hipka]

Originally Posted by ****

vitalsigns doesn't understand US anti-discrimination laws and continues to give wrong advice. It is amazing what some people will do to hide their lack of understanding of the laws.
Here is how it goes: private companies are not allowed to ask people if they have a legal status in the US or not. Landlords are not allowed to ask that. Shop owners are not allowed to ask that. It is none of their business.

What baffles me is that you fail to understand that the manager has no business of knowing that. They are not allowed to ask for that. Only government officials, e.g., CIS and ICE, are allowed to ask for legal status. Even for working, the only thing companies are allowed to ask is to check if a person has work authorization.
Private citizens do not have any right to ask you for your legal status. The cashier at your local grocery store doesn't have that right, the owner of a car dealership doesn't have that right, a landlord doesn't have that right.
Why not? Government discriminates all the time (see Special Registration, for instance.) That's allowed discrimination. Government requires that employers check work authorization (not legal status.)
However, when I buy a service or goods from a company (and renting is just buying a service), that company has absolutely no right to check my legal status. The laws do not allow that. Period. End of story.

Oh, and following the laws goes both ways. Sure, somebody who is illegal violates the law. But that does not mean that a landlord can himself violate the law by asking for legal status. And even I, as Legal Permanent Resident, would not show any proof of my legal status, because it is illegal for the landlord to ask for it.
It is in fact all about following the law. The law does not allow a landlord to ask for legal status. So unlike you, I am very consistent in my insistence of following the law.

****, you are wrong this time. Private companies can ask for immig. status when you apply for a mortgage to buy a house. The only reason they are doing this is to protect their investment. By the same reasoning, why can't a landlord ask for immig. status to protect his investment?

[pralay]

Well, I ignored this thread for a while because I am pretty much ignorant on all these landlord-tetant rules.

Today morning I did a simple google and found this site:
Renters' Rights: The Basics

Reading this article what I understood that it's legal to ask for immigration status (or US citizenship status). However, asking special question to certain applicant (and not asking others) or asking for additional documents from certain applicant (and not asking others) can be considered discrimination. Read what it says (Section 2: "Question One, Question All"):

"For example, landlords who ask about immigration history should ask all tenants, not just those whom they suspect might be in the country illegally. Questioning only Hispanics would amount to illegal discrimination on the basis of national origin."

So, when 'arizonian' is asked to fill-up "Supplemental Rental Application for non-US Citizens", from the face value it looks like OK. However, I still would contact landlord and make sure if this form is required to be filled-up by every non-citizen. Because, not asking every non-citizen can be considered discrimination.

[hipka]

Originally Posted by ****

That's a legitimate reason.
Huh? What would a landlord have to protect? They get rent and a security deposit. That covers their risk. They protect their investment by having full occupancy.
That's the whole point: there is no legitimate reason for a landlord to ask for legal status. They provide a service and get a rent check for that every month. If the person (US citizen or not) leaves for whatever reason, and doesn't pay the rent, the apartment gets cleaned out, and rented out to somebody else. Quite different from a 25-year mortgage.
To reiterate: a landlord does not have any legitimate business reason to ask for the legal status of a tenant. I could rent an apartment and leave the country. As long as I pay the rent, it does not matter to the landlord.

There is a loss suffered by the landlord if a person simply leaves the country. The appt. cannot be rented out till the end of the term unless the landlord starts eviction proceedings. In fact it should be easier for the mortgage company to confiscate the house as there is a clause for that when you sign the mortgage. So there is no reason they should be worried about immig. status.
-- Also it is legally possible to discriminate and charge higher interest rates for non-permanent residents, my guess is thats the only reason the companies are interested in knowing the immigration status.

[Participant]

As per HUD--FHEO info'.
*'The Act does not prohibit discrimination based solely on a person's citizenship status. Accordingly, asking housing applicants to provide documentation of their citizenship or immigration status during the screening process would not violate the Fair Housing Act. In fact, such measures have been in place for a number of years in screening applicants for federally-assisted housing.'
*'Example 2: A person who is applying for an apartment mentions in the interview that he left his native country to come study in the United States. The landlord, concerned that the student's visa may expire during tenancy, asks the student for documentation to determine how long he is legally allowed to be in the United States. If the landlord requests this information, regardless of the applicant's race or specific national origin, the landlord has not violated the Fair Housing Act.

*See HUD Regulations at 24 CFR 5.506-5.512'
Link:http://www.hud.gov/offices/fheo/library/sept11.cfm.
The above will shed the light on the changed circumucstances and
rests some of the above questions.

[Apollo_13]

Originally Posted by Participant

As per HUD--FHEO info'.
*'The Act does not prohibit discrimination based solely on a person's citizenship status. Accordingly, asking housing applicants to provide documentation of their citizenship or immigration status during the screening process would not violate the Fair Housing Act. In fact, such measures have been in place for a number of years in screening applicants for federally-assisted housing.'
*'Example 2: A person who is applying for an apartment mentions in the interview that he left his native country to come study in the United States. The landlord, concerned that the student's visa may expire during tenancy, asks the student for documentation to determine how long he is legally allowed to be in the United States. If the landlord requests this information, regardless of the applicant's race or specific national origin, the landlord has not violated the Fair Housing Act.

*See HUD Regulations at 24 CFR 5.506-5.512'
Link:http://www.hud.gov/offices/fheo/library/sept11.cfm.
The above will shed the light on the changed circumucstances and
rests some of the above questions.

BINGO !!!!

Hopefully this would cool down some folks here....

[Myxomop]

Originally Posted by ****

So, as usual, it all depends on the exact circumstances. I would still not rent from somebody who asks for that information. I am not willing to give out that information except to government officials. So the landlord will have lost a tenant with stable, high income. Tough luck for him.

This is your choice and you are totally entitled to it.
But I still fail to see discrimination based on national origin.

[Participant]

Coming back to the basic question of the issue--
Whether it is illegal to ask a tenant about his status and some body can fight it out and win etc..etc..
the above post gives one clue about the situation and what is allowed in pratice.
Regarding if one goes or not to a land lord who asks for this info'--
it is his personal choice and may not go to him at all and decline any offer from a land lord,stipualting these conditions.He has the right.
But this will not surrogate or camouflage the basic issue ---regarding the land lord and he still can give lease his property to that who ever meets his requirement (of other leaglly allowed things) as well and challenge to this may be very remote.