Presumption or Double Standard?

[Upstate_NY]

I've heard cases that Caucasian Americans/Canadians w/o accents freely cross the border w/o hassle while other Canadian/American Citizens (with accent or non-Caucasian w/o accents) face questioning especially entering the US.

There is a Caucasian Canadian family that I know who are settled in the US for over 30 years. They are both from Ontario originally and the wife is now an American citizen.

When I explained to her the hassle of getting thru the border post-9/11, she explained to me that she has never taken or shown any documentation while crossing the border (Niagara Falls) either way even now. She does go to see her mother in ON often. I was very shocked.

The extreme security measures DOES NOT bother me at all but I wonder as to why some could travel w/o any papers (especially Caucasians) under presumption whereas other American/Canadian Citizens (non-Caucasian with or w/o accents) encounter questioning.

Is this a double standard? What do you think? Invite Canadians also to share their experiences while crossing the border.

Thanks.

[notxer]

Don't make a complete judgement on one persons discussion. While it may be their experience, they may also trivialize security screening that is occuring and in fact they may not be aware of security screening that is going on.

This strikes me as completely subjective, i.e. how bad were you treated? It's easy to raise the discrimination flag and it does get raised way too much when it has nothing to do with discimination. On the other hand I am not saying discrimination or bias doesn't come into it.

On the matter of profiling, this may not be popular, but I think absolutely they should racially profile people. After all it was 19 young middle eastern people that hijacked those planes, not a middle aged caucasian woman.

I think it's ludicrous to watch grandmothers having their breasts patted down in security lines and old grandads in wheelchairs made to get out and hobble around etc.

El Al racially profiles it's passengers and makes no apologies. Here we live in a society that is trying to be too fair to it's own disadvantage.

I think that they should give extra visible scrutiny to young male middle eastern people, to really check them out and to give people around watching the assurance they are being checked out.

If people from these regions have a problem with that, then they need to collectively get their population in-line, even the radicals, search them out and make them stop being a blemish on their culture and the rest of the world. Until they step up and accept responisibility, then they need to accept the humiliation. (please don't tell me they have no power - that's just abdication of responsibility)

I know this is not popular, but that's my opinion.

[TheRealCanadian]

Originally Posted by Upstate_NY

I've heard cases that Caucasian Americans/Canadians w/o accents freely cross the border w/o hassle while other Canadian/American Citizens (with accent or non-Caucasian w/o accents) face questioning especially entering the US.

Wouldn't surprise me one bit. You should also try being a Hispanic American in the southern border areas.

When I explained to her the hassle of getting thru the border post-9/11, she explained to me that she has never taken or shown any documentation while crossing the border (Niagara Falls) either way even now. She does go to see her mother in ON often. I was very shocked.

There are some important bits of context we need to be aware of.

In a lot of places along the border, there are towns that straddle it and a fair bit of fluidity. The POEs get relatively little traffic, and what they do get is usually "locals". The CBP inspectors get really familiar with those folks. There's little point asking someone you've met 100 times before for ID or proof of citizenship. If your friend has gotten familiar with the border agents, that could be likely. It surprises me that this would be the case at Niagara, but it's certainly a possibility at the smaller POEs.

The other thing to mention is that a Canadian entering the US as a visitor is treated with a completely different level of scrutiny than a Canadian entering to work or live. I've crossed into the US literally hundreds of times as a visitor prior to 1998. INS or Customs would ask me my citizenship, where I lived, where I was going and for what purpose. Sometimes they'd ask for proof, to which I'd usually hand over a driver's license and birth certificate. I have crossed into the US once or twice and only later realized I'd forgotten the birth certificate at home, but was never asked.

In such a circumstance, the border guard takes a peek at me and draws some conclusions in his mind as to how likely it is for me to be telling the truth. He might run the plate #. If I seem trustworthy, and the ID/plate match what I'm telling, odds are I'm telling the truth and there are far more "interesting" (or threatening) folks farther down the line. Have a nice day, see you later.

The minute you start crossing for work, things get much more interesting. That being said, in most cases if your answers match what they want to hear, you'll be fine. They queried my wife once or twice when she had a TD or H-4 if she was working. They made sure they asked if I was working for my employer. They were never rude or abrasive, but I don't think (with maybe 1 or 2 exceptions) they were ever "friendly", unlike some of my visitor entrances. Of course, on a few times I showed my I-94 and was just waved through.

Once I got my GC, things got pretty nonchalant again. My parents were driving me to the Buffalo airport a while back; they presented their passports and I showed my GC; just asked me how long I'd been out of the US (48 hours) and away we went.

Do non-Caucasians have an issue? Probably. If someone has an accent, they might get asked and questioned. My mother has a strong eastern European accent and was recently queried at the PFI how long she had been a Canadian citizen. She indignantly responded 31 years, maybe longer than the POE official had been a US citizen. POE inspectors don't get promoted by hassling annoyed grandmothers so they let her through.

If a white, unaccented Caucasian shows up at a Canadian POE - they probably are Canadian. If they're requesting entrance as a visitor, then they'll probably get let in. I would not suggest that they need no documentation, but they're certainly not asked 100% of the time. Anything beyond that, they'll probably get asked to verify.

[schandrag]

Profiling is Ok. But racial profiling misses the point. There are muslim radicals belonging to al qeda of all racial persuasions. Arabs can be caucasian , olive skinned or have a negroid appearance (somalis, Sudanis). there are also recruits from Chechnya, (which is in the caucus mountains ). South east asia(indonesia), the Urumqui province of China and south asia. The only common aspect is their misplaced beliefs.

Israel(El Al) profiles based on one's religion/faith. After all it is very difference in appearnce between a non ashkenazi jew and a palestiinian christian/arab.

"Middle Eastern" is a braod term and applied as it is understood by most average americans, it would mean extra screening for hispanics (especially south american mestizos) and non muslim south asians, while allowing a bonafideterrorist with other racial features to slip through (if racial profiling starts, al-qaeda can easily change its recruits for american operations to the many hundreds-if not thousands in its ranks who do not fit the common american notion of 'middle eastern'

[schandrag]

real canadian good observations. just one caveat
it should be a caucasian with a broad north american accent or a well recognized regional american accent not unaccented. (BTW what happens to a francophone canadian at the POE? )

[TheRealCanadian]

Originally Posted by schandrag

(what happens to a francophone canadian at the POE? )

In an area with a lot of francophone Canadians, nothing.

One thing I'd like to reiterate is that the vast majority of Canadians crossing the US border are asked for ID, and/or their license plates are scanned. If the prima facie inspection seems OK and story jives, end of story. It's not like there's no tracking going on.

Same thing on the Canadian side. Canada and the US do share entry/exit information.

[chinabee]

As a Chinese Canadian, i travel frequently between Canada and America. I have never been asked for ID prior to 911 when traveling with a car, but I haven't took any groud travel after 911.

The support for racial/religion profiling is obsurd. Just to remind people that the guys who blew up Oklahoma City building were white christian.

So what's up with that? The bottomline is no religion is free of radicals.

[TheRealCanadian]

Originally Posted by chinabee

The support for racial/religion profiling is obsurd. Just to remind people that the guys who blew up Oklahoma City building were white christians. The bottom line is no religion is free of radicals.

Absolutely. One should never assume that any individual is not dangerous based on age, sex, skin, religion, etc. It's not based on high-minded principles, just basic common sense. The Israelis are anal about everyone on El Al flights for this very good reason.

That being said, from what I've seen at some POEs over the years, when CBP gives you a hard time, I think there's more of a suspicion that you will overstay or work illegally than security fears. For every potential terrorist, there's probably 100 folks who just want to hang around illegally.

As an FYI, I flew into Atlanta from Toronto yesterday, and spent 10-15 minutes in the lineup at the PFI. During that time, everyone got through and there didn't seem to be any issues. My own entrance was ridiculously fast.