Is website considered a business?

[starter04]

I am impressed by the answers I have found on this forum and would like to pose one question of my own. Before I do that, I would like to state that after going through the forum I understand that on an H1B visa I can invest in a business but cannot work for it.

Here are my questions:
1) If a website simply acts as an intermediary to a tansaction between a customer and a business, would it be considered a business if it is offered as a free service? The idea being if the website attracts sufficient interest, I'll charge for the service after I get my GC.

2) Is this legal?

Thanks for your help.

[starter04]

Originally Posted by ****

Hmm, that's a tough one.
I would consider it a business. An example: EBay basically is the same thing, a website that acts as intermediary between a seller and a buyer. Even if EBay would not charge the seller, it would still be a business.
What Ebay does and what your site would do is to provide a service. And providing a service is a business, even if you provide the service for free at the beginning. Since you intend to charge for the service later on, offering it for free at the beginning could actually be seen as just a way to build a customer base. Lots of companies started out that way during the dot-com boom.
It is of course legal to run such a website. But you'd still need somebody else to actually run it, as long as you don't have the work authorization to run it.

I understand that to play it safe would be the best option where I should be an investor and hire someone else to do the work. But lets consider a hypothetical situation: what if the service is free forever. Would it still be considered a business?

Next, what if someone buys the website from me before I start charging for the service. Then could that be considered as something similar to a real estate transaction where you own a building (website in this case) and then you sell it at a later date. In one of the threads, I guess I noticed that if you are not selling real estate frequently, it is permissible under H1b visa or if you are not day trading, you can invest in stocks.

Let me know what you think. Thanks.

[starter04]

Originally Posted by ****

Yes. Who decides if it is free "forever"? The owner. And the owner can change that at any time. So offering a service free "forever" is still a business. There in fact have been quite a lot of businesses (again, in the dot-com era) that promised to be free "forever", only to start charging fees when the business plan didn't work as expected...
Hmm, no. That's quite different. With real estate, you buy and sell actual physical property. With a website, you "sell" a brand. You sell the name recognition the website has, its reputation. You sell a rather abstract concept. That goes back to what the dot-com companies did: give away their "product" for free, to boost the name recognition of the website. Then, with the name recognition and lots of people visiting the website, it would become interesting to advertisers, etc. and eventually the business could be sold to the public in an IPO or to an established company and the founders would get rich...
Still, however misguided these business plans were, they were still businesses.

OK. So this leads to me to believe that all websites are businesses and they should all be registered as businesses because they all could potentially be bought by someone even if the owner never intended to sell them. For instance if I created a personal website which had interesting set of links and a substantial people happened to like it and visit it, the website will grow in popularity (for example Carigs list) and as a result businesses will get interested in buying it. Again keep in mind that in this case there was no intent of a business (to make money) right from the start. Basically I am trying to see where the line is.

I appreciate your comments/insights so far.

[Jharkhandi]

Originally Posted by starter04

I am impressed by the answers I have found on this forum and would like to pose one question of my own. Before I do that, I would like to state that after going through the forum I understand that on an H1B visa I can invest in a business but cannot work for it.

Here are my questions:
1) If a website simply acts as an intermediary to a tansaction between a customer and a business, would it be considered a business if it is offered as a free service? The idea being if the website attracts sufficient interest, I'll charge for the service after I get my GC.

2) Is this legal?

Thanks for your help.

It is not a business. For running a business, you need to make money thru it. It is a volunteer work. Consider a situation - you wear a Pepsi or Coke T-shirt. But you are not making money thru any sale nor taking any money for their promotion. You cannot be termed as running a business, even if you help some lady with two kids to purchase one by passing the money to counter clerk, all day long (crazy lady ).

For a business you need to maintain credit/debit detail, ledger maintenence and before all this - a registered company. You may not be able to keep track of whatever they purchase for making a business analysis, but certainly you can do so in name of item hits. And your intent can never be proved to be otherwise, if you are counting hits on item.

Another point why it is not a business - you will not file taxes for it.

Expecting a free account now.

[Jharkhandi]

I am not sure how ebay works, but if you are not making money you are not running a business for sure. You can work in library as volunteer and library still gets money from taxpayers. In a way you are intermediary(help with performance), but you are not running business. You may also take the fines from member and put it in libraries' account - but you are still not getting paid. You definitely need to make money to call it business.

Also if IRS doesn't counts it as business then USCIS cannot.

[starter04]

Originally Posted by ****

Craigs list is a business. It is not a personal website.
Well, you stated differently. You want to make money off it in the future. That means it is a business. A personal website is not intended to make money. If it changes, like Craigs' list, it becomes a business. The whole thing is not static.
The difference to your proposed website is that you want to start it with a business in mind. And, you don't act as mediary on a personal website. So, the content matters as well.

So if a website only provided information and possibly disussion forums, of course for free with no intent of making money ever, where would that fall - business or a personal website. Based on the Crraigs list example I would argue that it should not be considered a business but I would like to hear arguments against it ( if any).

[Jharkhandi]

Originally Posted by ****

There are lots of businesses that have losses, i.e., they don't make money...
Volunteering where other people volunteer as well is fine. Volunteering where other people get money is not...
For CIS, it doesn't matter if it is a business or not. It matters if people normally get paid doing that particular work. In your example, if the other people in the library get paid, your volunteering would be considered work, and not allowed without work authorization. This is longstanding CIS policy.
Dream on... CIS and IRS are independent, the last time I looked. And it is longstanding policy of CIS to consider everything work where people normally get paid for. And people normally get paid for being intermediaries. Period. End of story.

By making money what is meant is financial transaction which you are party to. Not just making profit.

What is fine with volunteering is your thinking. I have volunteered in library some people were paid(cleaning guy, maintenence guy was paid thru city). What do you think everyone does work in library for charity? By that definition nothing will ever be "volunteer" under sun - someone makes money from one part for sure.

USCIS does not defines what is business - it is law that defines it and that part of law is taken care by IRS. Enjoy your concepts and ... PERIOD.

[Jharkhandi]

Originally Posted by ****

Oh, yeah? Since you are so big in the law, show me the definition.
And, CIS does not care what IRS thinks. Get a clue...

Looks like you play one on TV. Now onwards one should send tax papers to CIS.

You show me the prove where it says USCIS decides what is a business(or anything in this context)! If you have clue have sensible arguments and not just scribbling here and there.

P.S. I am not big in law - if it was so - I would not be posting my questions in this portal. But you seem to be one - you preach and sermon with such definitive posture(now do not ask me for definition about your being big in law). But you know what - if you accept what is true - your strature will grow like ginnu.

[Jharkhandi]

Originally Posted by ****

Can't provide the definition I asked for, eh?
CIS does not care about what is a business or not. CIS cares about people working without work authorization. That's all I am talking about here. You are the one trying to divert the thread.
And CIS considers anything working that people normally get paid for, regardless if IRS considers it a business or not.
This is longstanding CIS policy. You can ask any immigration lawyer about it.

And CIS considers anything working that people normally get paid for

And if you are not paid - you have not violated it. Can I call it ... PERIOD?

[Jharkhandi]

Originally Posted by ****

Geez, you are really dense...
It does NOT matter if you get paid or not. It matters if other people normally get paid! How hard can it be to grasp that?

Here it is again for you to write down:
In your library example, assuming that you don't have a GC, if you volunteered, and the person next to you, doing the same thing you do, got paid, you have violated the immigration law. Plain and simple. No buts and ifs. Got it now???
In the website example, if you act as an intermediary with your personal website, and others with commercial websites act as intermediaries as well, then you would have violated the immigration law. Again, plain and simple.

If you don't believe me, ask your lawyer...

Best of all times.

[Jharkhandi]

For rest of you - no organization in USA can challenge if a work is volunteer or not as long as IRS states so.

For ex: Free tax return preparation is done for people by volunteers(TCE and VITA) from IRS every year(ofcourse for people less than certain income). The work that they do is considered "volunteer", even though you may get same thing from paid sites.

Think about it - if the stand is that it is not volunteer work, for which someone else makes money, then someone is voilating labor rules. In case of library - it is state/county. Do you think they will voilate it so grossly?

I have myself volunteered - it is not considered business, even if someone makes money out of same things; as long as you are not making.

[Jharkhandi]

Originally Posted by ****

Yes, CIS can. Because CIS uses the immigration law, and according to immigration law, volunteering is only allowed if everybody else in the same position also volunteers. Period. End of story.
If you have work authorization, you can volunteer as much as you want whereever you want. But, if you don't have work authorization, you can not. Period. End of story.
If you didn't have work authorization, you may be in trouble.
I know that it is hard to accept that. Understandable that you fight the truth so hard
As I have said before, ask your lawyer before doing any volunteering work.

I did the work after asking two leading lawyers. (both did consultancy for free). I volunteer something else too, which I will not like to elaborate, with knowledge of local congressman and there I learnt Spanish. I am in no trouble dude. Don't make me afraid - I know it is allowed as long as you are not making money USCIS can't do anything to your case. Yet to see one case of that kind - can you show me one? you must - see you are asking for proof and you never give one except for your sermons. You know how to read law and cases - please guide me thru one single such case - please I request you sir.

By the way PERIOD does not means anything - unless you play it on TV, where remote is pressed for change.

[Jharkhandi]

Originally Posted by ****

Can't be that leading...
All leading lawyers would agree with me.
You are in trouble. The truth is hard to stand, I know...
Ask a real lawyer. They know about all the case law.
But you are clearly afraid to learn the truth. Poor guy

All leading lawyers would agree with me. The truth is hard to stand, I know...
Ask a real lawyer. They know about all the case law. But you are clearly afraid to learn the truth. Poor guy (and funny too).

[Jharkhandi]

Originally Posted by ****

You don't have any arguments here, either, anymore.
Apparently, losing an argument is hard to bear as well for you...

Read my post where I lost to a genius and suggested people to decide themselves - guess now it is clear who need to learn to read.

[Jharkhandi]

Originally Posted by ****

You are a lost case. This has gone on for too long.
Welcome to my killfile.

What a ...

[Jharkhandi]

Originally Posted by ****

Just so to show that I am right, here are a couple of quotes from immigration-related sites. And there are lots more...
I hope this settles it once and for all.
I particularly like to point to the last one:
"you cannot give someone a battery boost if they have been waiting two hours in the rain for a tow truck. You cannot go to the grocery store and buy groceries for your neighbour."
People have been denied entry if they helped their daughter with a newborn. That also takes away a job from a US nanny.
People have been denied entry if they stayed at a friend's house and helped painting that house.
These two instances were reported in a Usenet newsgroup by the people involved.

http://www.usvisanews.com/wedquest041101.html
"Even if you are not being compensated (or what you would consider "employed"), this would certainly raise questions with INS. Even as to what you describe as to the permissibility of your wife's volunteer work, we would advise against any volunteer work when in the U.S. in the above-named categories, as a protection against possible difficulties down the road. The knowledge and approval of your current employer will not be relevant to INS: INS cares whether you were employed without authorization"

http://www.clevelandclinic.org/educa...e/vipimgen.htm
"The only volunteer work permitted is that which is done for a charitable organization. For example, working as a hospital volunteer, a community volunteer working with children or the elderly or as a volunteer in a museum.
Dependents may NOT "volunteer" to do research in laboratories libraries or on computers, assist with patients, perform general administrative or secretarial duties or work as translators. These are all examples of positions for which people are normally hired and paid as an employee. The INS strictly forbids this type of activity on the part of dependents unless the person is eligible and authorized for employment."

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~intl/updat...ependents.html
"Dependents in F-2, TD or H-4 status may not accept employment in the U.S. They may volunteer only if the position for which they are interested has always been a volunteer position, and always will be. The CIS or the Department of Labor (DOL) does not allow a dependent to volunteer for a position, and then begin to receive payment for performing the same duties once a change of immigration status is approved."

http://www.murthy.com/chatlogs/chat0426.html
" A person on an H1B or H-4 status is allowed to invest in a business but is not legally allowed to work for that business while in the U.S. A person is allowed to volunteer for a volunteer or a non-profit organization, but may not work for a profit venture without obtaining the necessary permissions from the USCIS or the U.S. Department of Labor. "

http://www.yumepage.gr.jp/home/otani...iko/E_Visa.htm
"For musicians or performance artists, a public performance falls under the definition of “work.” For a visual artist, the situation is a bit more ambiguous, but in the end, their activities can also probably be thought of as “work.” Even in the case of volunteer activities -- that is, activities where there is no remuneration -- the definition of “work” would still apply and so a visa would be necessary, because, in the first place, there is no guarantee that the immigration officer at the airport will believe that you will actually be working for free, and even if he should believe you, activities engaged in with the hope of some sort of future return are automatically classified as ”work”."

http://www.centa.com/CEN-TAPEDE/arch...17/000447.html
"That means you cannot work at anything in the USA which takes "any" job away from a US resident alien on citizen. That means, you cannot give someone a battery boost if they have been waiting two hours in the rain for a tow truck. You cannot go to the grocery store and buy groceries for your neighbour. You cannot volunteer at anything that others are usually paid for."

Shows your IQ once more. All these examples have one thing in common- intent for employment/future profit(save money for nanny and battery case) - and that is something I outlined long time back - that transactions cannot be saved on web-site.

These are half truth **** - nice try. Show me a case where it really happened to be a problem.

I though you will "prove" yourself with ref to any case.

When you know people in person, it is tough to prove that intent was not to make gains, but for unknown people it is not the case. Why a learned person like you is unable to understand this point?

You make me laugh now. You are funny. No one can convince you - good bye.

[Jharkhandi]

Originally Posted by ****

As I have stated before and state here one more time, the only thing that matters is if the work, even if it is volunteering, takes away a paid job for a US citizen or PR. Profit motive or not of the person volunteering is irrelevant. QED.

Irrelevant in this context as there is no paid job being taken away from USC or PR holder. Also internet is a free media and in this context not being developed for any US organization(who owns it) - so not under preview in first place.

Also no financial data is being collected so intent is clear too.

Can I also say QED?

[Jharkhandi]

Originally Posted by ****

As I have stated before and state here one more time, the only thing that matters is if the work, even if it is volunteering, takes away a paid job for a US citizen or PR. Simply giving a jump start can be prohibited. Taking business from somebody else, including other websites run by US citizens or PRs, is prohibited.
Profit motive or not of the person volunteering is irrelevant. QED.

Irrelevant again.

People visiting this thread are advised to read all posts and then make their own opinion - someone repeating umpteen number of time the same line is not always right. Here no business is taken away as the person running website is not making money or collecting transaction data.

P.S. I have always read QED is written only once per problem.

[Jharkhandi]

Originally Posted by ****

As I have stated before and state here one more time, the only thing that matters is if the work, even if it is volunteering, takes away a paid job for a US citizen or PR. Simply giving a jump start can be prohibited. Taking business from somebody else, including other websites run by US citizens or PRs, is prohibited.
Profit motive or not of the person volunteering is irrelevant. QED.

I had to un-killfile you for a moment to look at your recent posts again, and it is obvious that you are retreating...
In one post you said
"All these examples have one thing in common- intent for employment/future profit"
In your next post, after I explained that "Profit motive or not of the person volunteering is irrelevant", you don't dispute that anymore.
I just love seeing this classical retreat
It is always funny to see somebody not man enough to state that he was wrong retreat one position at a time. None of your other positions can be saved, either.
Lesson 1: If you want to argue with me you better have something to argue about...
Lesson 2: When I say something, I usually know what I am talking about...

Now I put you back into my killfile.

Vague sense of comfort. Did you not mark in my post - I made clearer the point that you missed and you are repeating one line like sacred verses - what could be possible answer to it?

Retreat ... feel happy - only you think so. Visit this thread if and when you grow up.

What a way to call yourself a man - repeating lines again and again - wow. I don't have to prove I am a man. I know that and it is enough for me.

And for your lessons -

Add one for yourself - accept the truth - you will gain respect.

On the serious side: I accept that you have been great in helping people, but you know what is right and what is not on this topic(can't belv even if you say million times otherwise, ****)! What hurts your ego to accept it is beyond my comprehension! And I will show you how to accept it once you point my errors to me - I will accept your killfile with grace - very honestly!

[Participant]

Originally Posted by ****

As I have stated before and state here one more time, the only thing that matters is if the work, even if it is volunteering, takes away a paid job for a US citizen or PR. Simply giving a jump start can be prohibited. Taking business from somebody else, including other websites run by US citizens or PRs, is prohibited.
Profit motive or not of the person volunteering is irrelevant. QED.

With in same logic:example:
Coming to this forum,many members raise questions on many GC issues.
For who are not having work authorization, say have applied for GC and No EAD applied-- he has helped in replying since he wanted to help/volunteer
(as is the case with thousands in this forum)..The same quetsions if not answered or available from theese volunteers
(again who are on above status)could have been possibly answered by an paid attorney/asst.(US citizen or PR) for a fee and made money obviously.Since these guys volunteered with answers and hence taking away of job/Pay) from some CITiZEN/PR,
then with the above logic, you mean these
volunteers are in breach of these regulations and are in trouble??? and stop volunteering??

[Participant]

Originally Posted by ****

hmm, no. We are not giving legal advice. Only lawyers are allowed to do that, and even lawyers can not give legal advice on public boards like these.
Since we here are not giving legal advice, we are not taking business away from lawyers. In other words, people can not point to posts here and say "but xyz said I'm ok." xyz has voiced an opinion, nothing more. Legal advice you can rely on always has to come from lawyers.
There is a reason for my signature

I agree here we are not giving legal advise.
For ex. Scenario:
say you don't have a 'work
authorization' and I ask for an advise.Though It is not 'legally bound advise'
I knew it is worth and followed and got the result.Now consider you are not there(imagining nobody is there to give a freebie like this),Iiwould have been forced to go to an paid lawyer/paralegal/asst,pay and get advise( whatever the trivial nature/simple of the issue may be)since me being totally novice.
By this it is not construed that you have deprived a CIT/PR of earning/payment who would have gotten it in the above situation?
Then as per your logic you have violated the regulations.(Pl.keep in mind here, you are referred has an No work authorization,for the sake of example only).

[Jharkhandi]

Originally Posted by Participant

I agree here we are not giving legal advise.
For ex. Scenario:
say you don't have a 'work
authorization' and I ask for an advise.Though It is not 'legally bound advise'
I knew it is worth and followed and got the result.Now consider you are not there(imagining nobody is there to give a freebie like this),Iiwould have been forced to go to an paid lawyer/paralegal/asst,pay and get advise( whatever the trivial nature/simple of the issue may be)since me being totally novice.
By this it is not construed that you have deprived a CIT/PR of earning/payment who would have gotten it in the above situation?
Then as per your logic you have violated the regulations.(Pl.keep in mind here, you are referred has an No work authorization,for the sake of example only).

Thanks a lot participant. It is indeed a very good point. Makes clearer - what could be considered money making and intent of money making. Appreciate your post.

[Jharkhandi]

Originally Posted by ****

You still at it? Give it up already, troll.

Spare me intelligent piece. These posts are not meant for experts of your calibre.

If you are still there - read your answers and its hollowness, when you say what is perfectly fine! Now that is called retreat - you bogus guy.

Do you I have to ask for your permission to appreciate Participant? Besides do you think I replied you in my last post?



P.S. You will play good on TV, 24 X 7 shows. I am sure you will repeat these lines while you are sleeping.

Prediction - don't know what USCIS will do, but **** will post another useless post muttering same lines and perhaps his good name - troll. Let us see - I won it so many times, even if I am not correct this time, I will not be upset.

HELP HELP ... **** is trying to help us.

Watch the post below mine and see it yourself how correct I could be! **** will talk to himself again.

[Participant]

will just review from technical perceptions and circumustantials .
**No, you won't have to go to a paid lawyer/paralegal/etc.
All the information people give out here is actually available for free anyway, on websites, etc. Even the immigration law is online at the CIS website. In fact, reading through the law is how I learned most of the issues.
The other thing is that you are not depriving a lawyer of business if you don't have a business relationship with that lawyer already.**
---Law info' is available at various places but itself engulfs law,meaning,interpretition,application and preponderance.
Just for ex. I may be knowing law but why i go to experienced peers or lawyers is, for all other things and applicability of that law for a particular my situation .Hence presume that I need advise from a 'knowlegeable source'( who is knowledgeable in my opinion).If I am getting suitable advise from a helpful and knowledgeable volunteer first I go to him.If none is availble
I am forced(against my wish) to seek a lawyer for all other things except
for law wording.
So here I guess,free helpful advise has deprived the possible client enrolement to a lawyer and his earnings.(Issue may be small ofcourse).
For example here in forums some members are asking some thing is done what to be done?many helpful people9Volunteers) are giving advises and co-member is getting the benefit from forum.If that is not there I need run around a lawyer obviously.
(the main issue dicussed here is Volunteering and how it is depriving CIT/PR
and how legal it is then) .
**Is giving directions prohibited because you could have bought a map? No, of course not. The directions given may be wrong, but that doesn't matter since I never claimed they were right.**
---When I bought a map and it gives wrong info' and when expicit discalimer doesn't exist aboout the correctness and results in damage,I can always claim!.
**
In the example of giving a jump start, it is only illegal if the person waiting for the jump start has already called a towing company and is just waiting for the tow truck to show up**
It is again chicken and egg dilemma.If a person has not volunteered
there could have been a potential all possible business relation ship
could have been evolved and the service person might have earned this money.(Imagine no body stops/or bother to stop on high way or not a soul is visible)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
The above is not for rebuttal but the issue is,from the above and simialr scenarios,it is hard get convinced of logic, by just some body volunteering
will deprive some others earnings and violates the regulations et.al
and there sholud be strong motive beyond ' benefit of doubt' of unlawful earning.
This is my just opinion.

[Jharkhandi]

Participant,

Your post makes sense. Keep it up.

[starter04]

Originally Posted by ****

As I have stated before and state here one more time, the only thing that matters is if the work, even if it is volunteering, takes away a paid job for a US citizen or PR. Simply giving a jump start can be prohibited. Taking business from somebody else, including other websites run by US citizens or PRs, is prohibited.
Profit motive or not of the person volunteering is irrelevant. QED.

The underlying assumption you are making when you say that volunteering (working on a free website in my case) takes away business from someone is that such a business currently exists that can provide the service and thus you are taking away business from them.

As far as taking away job from someone, I dont understand how you can take away job from anyone if that job did not exist till you created it.

Further, how is it different from saying that because you cook food at home you are taking away business from restaurants or taking away a job from a chef and are thus in violation of the law!!

[Jharkhandi]

Originally Posted by starter04

The underlying assumption you are making when you say that volunteering (working on a free website in my case) takes away business from someone is that such a business currently exists that can provide the service and thus you are taking away business from them.

As far as taking away job from someone, I dont understand how you can take away job from anyone if that job did not exist till you created it.

Further, how is it different from saying that because you cook food at home you are taking away business from restaurants or taking away a job from a chef and are thus in violation of the law!!

You understand the point. And I guess that is more than satisfying.

[starter04]

Originally Posted by ****

Yes.
Hmm, are you saying that your website idea is so novel that nobody else has thought of it before? I find that somewhat hard to believe.

No. The issue is not cooking food at home, but offering it to the world...

Well I did not say that...I can only say that even though such business exist in other parts of the country they are not in my place and thus this website will not be taking away business from anyone at least until someone follows me and starts a competing website. In that case is the website still a business?

[starter04]

Originally Posted by ****

Hmm, where is "your place" in cyberspace? Using the Internet is different from other business ventures because there is no particular physical building for the business. This has resulted in prosecutors using the place of viewing as the place of business. There has been a case where people who posted half-nude pictures on their website in California where that is absolutely legal having been prosecuted in some other US state with stronger indecency laws, because it was possible for people from that state to view these pictures.
So, your website may be taking business away from some commercial entity across the country.

Well short of giving you the whole business plan, I can only say that it has to do with local transactions and even though the websites that are currently out there could possibly do it but because it requires local contact they have not done so far (and may take years to get here) and so I think I can still argue that it wll not take away business from anyone with the earlier caveat that I cannot gurantee the future where someone who may not have had the courage to start such a website may start one after seeing mine and then your argument about taking away business may hold true but until then....

[Jharkhandi]

Originally Posted by starter04

Well short of giving you the whole business plan, I can only say that it has to do with local transactions and even though the websites that are currently out there could possibly do it but because it requires local contact they have not done so far (and may take years to get here) and so I think I can still argue that it wll not take away business from anyone with the earlier caveat that I cannot gurantee the future where someone who may not have had the courage to start such a website may start one after seeing mine and then your argument about taking away business may hold true but until then....

Forget it dude. Some people are hopeless - just ranting. You are safe and sound in your approach. Do not worry. You have filtered the truth - so have people in other thread.

Some people fail to see reason - there ego is so large. They may be good at many other things, but this one thing(ego) brings them down.

Best of luck for your website.