Impact of driving citation on naturalization?

[immigrationcom]

Hi! All: I am new in this forum and wonder what the impact of driving ticket on the naturalization. I may got a ticket the other day. Thanks for your response. ic

[waapples]

i've had 1 negligent 2nd degree ticket(still a traffic infraction ticket, not a reckless driving ticket), + 5 other traffic infraction tickets such as speeding, following too closely, and etc....

i applied back in April of 2003 and had my US citizenship interview on Nov 2003. my US application got rejected due to the lack of good moral character.

since my very last ticket i got was back in Feb of 2002, i have to wait 'til Feb 2007 to reapply, and of course, they told me not to get another traffic ticket.

well, there is no right answer to the US immigration laws & rules, but it all depends on how they feel on that day. (at least that was my impression....)

talk to the immigration lawyers and do something before you apply.
good luck!

[rgeneblazo]

How about reckless driving/driving w/o license cited six years before the GC approval, while still on H1-B? Is that irrelevant to the naturalization case since it happened way before the naturalization statutory period (3 or 5 yrs from becoming GC holder)? If the application shows good moral characters during the period between the GC and naturalization, is that good enough to be approved for citizenship? Or the argument is that, you must have good moral character at all times (no DUI/reckless driving citations, others) prior to naturalization and doesn't matter wether you're on H1-B, student, or B1?

[immigrationcom]

If it is not reckless driving, it shouldn't be a problem. Lots of people have speeding tickets. It has to be listed on the application, though.

Thanks. Is passing a school bus by accident and not caught by police a reckless driving? IC

[AmericanWannabe]

even applying for nonimmigrant visa need
to disclose past traffic violations
because OF-156 ask "Have you
been arrested and convicted?"
without saying "excluding
traffic violations"

But most of us dared not do that
because nonimmigrant visa is so
dependent on whimsical attitude
of consuls.

[immigrationcom]

i've had 1 negligent 2nd degree ticket(still a traffic infraction ticket, not a reckless driving ticket), + 5 other traffic infraction tickets such as speeding, following too closely, and etc....

i applied back in April of 2003 and had my US citizenship interview on Nov 2003. my US application got rejected due to the lack of good moral character.

since my very last ticket i got was back in Feb of 2002, i have to wait 'til Feb 2007 to reapply, and of course, they told me not to get another traffic ticket.

well, there is no right answer to the US immigration laws & rules, but it all depends on how they feel on that day. (at least that was my impression....)

talk to the immigration lawyers and do something before you apply.
good luck!

waapples: Thanks for your response and sorry for hearing your experiene. What do you mean second degree ticket? I have no knowledge about this. ic

[AmericanWannabe]

There are 10 states (Massachuseets, Florida, Oregon, etc) whch have completed de-criminalize ordinary traffic offenses. Ordinary
traffic vliolations are considered a civil matter between you
and the state government and are dealt in civil trial courts.

So you don't have to disclose your traffic violations made
in these states.

[waapples]

waapples: Thanks for your response and sorry for hearing your experiene. What do you mean second degree ticket? I have no knowledge about this. ic

in Washington state, where i live, we have a law that differenciate the negligen 1st & 2nd degree.
the negligent driving 1st degree doesn't count as a traffic infraction anymore since you could be using your car as a weapon and could kill people on the road, just like the reckless driving, but the negligent driving 2nd degree is more likely the traffic infraction, meaning that you can simply pay for the ticket w/o going to the court.

[Harish Krishna]

"There are 10 states (Massachuseets, Florida, Oregon, etc) whch have completed de-criminalize ordinary traffic offenses. Ordinary
traffic vliolations are considered a civil matter between you
and the state government and are dealt in civil trial courts.

So you don't have to disclose your traffic violations made
in these states."

Are you sure about traffic violations like simple speeding in Florida or Oregon not having to be reported in the N-400? I received a speeding ticket in 2000 in Oregon, which I promptly paid. No arrest or conviction, just stopped for speeding.

[AmericanWannabe]

"There are 10 states (Massachuseets, Florida, Oregon, etc) whch have completed de-criminalize ordinary traffic offenses. Ordinary
traffic vliolations are considered a civil matter between you
and the state government and are dealt in civil trial courts.

So you don't have to disclose your traffic violations made
in these states."

Are you sure about traffic violations like simple speeding in Florida or Oregon not having to be reported in the N-400? I received a speeding ticket in 2000 in Oregon, which I promptly paid. No arrest or conviction, just stopped for speeding.

Here is a quote from "Beat your ticket" By attorney David Brown, Nolo.com law for all.

------------------------------------------------------------------
A few states - including Florida, Massachusetts, Michigan, Oregan and Washingtion- have completely "decriminalized" traffic offenses, technically making them "civil" not"criminal" infractions.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

[AmericanWannabe]

DO we have to disclose traffic violations we made in our home country before we came here ?

I think NOT

[Harish Krishna]

Thanks a lot for the info.

[chinabee]

How hard is it not to get any ticket? I have been driving more than 10 years in three different countries. I have never ever got any tickets - parking ticked included.

on the subject, getting a traffic ticket does not count as 'arrest' or 'conviction'. The police officer needs to tell you loud and clear that you are under arrest and book you in. otherwise, it does not count.

of course, i am not a lawyer.

[baikal3]

on the subject, getting a traffic ticket does not count as 'arrest' or 'conviction'. The police officer needs to tell you loud and clear that you are under arrest and book you in. otherwise, it does not count.

In part 10 if the form N-400 (application for naturalization) question D.16 asks:

"Have you EVER been arrested, cited or detained by a law enforcement officer
(including INS and military officers) for any reason?"

A traffic ticket certainly qualifies as "being cited" by a police officer.

[AmericanWannabe]

In part 10 if the form N-400 (application for naturalization) question D.16 asks:

"Have you EVER been arrested, cited or detained by a law enforcement officer
(including INS and military officers) for any reason?"

A traffic ticket certainly qualifies as "being cited" by a police officer.

Hypertechincally, being stopped by cops
is a kind of arrest because you are deprived of
freedom to move during the process so that it is arrest
but practically you don't have to equat that to arrest
because courts make traffic stop as exceptions.

[gvaknin]

I am sorry, but being stopped by an officer does not count as an arrest. If you have not been read your rights, and the officer did not clearly say that you are under arrest while specifying the reason for that, you are not. You are being stopped to be cited.
As to, should one disclose traffic citations on N400 questionnaire, I would consult an attorney. IO can determine one is not being honest for a simple misunderstanding. I would mention, and let the IO strike it out if it's TMI, or not relevant. By asking this question, I feel they are checking your integrity, and honesty, and are not looking for background records. They have it in their computers and in their endless security background checks they are doing pre-GC, During-GC, and pre applying for citizenship.

Good luck,

[Handsome1]

A traffic ticket does not qualify as "being cited" by a police officer. My interpretation to "have you ever been cited ?... List all other than traffic violation.." Citation means when court order to show up. When cop gives the ticket it merely means you have violated the traffic laws & pay the fine...period end of story (of course if you pleadge guily of traffic law violation). Since on the form it says list all EXCEPT traffic violation, so i personally believe we should not mention traffic tickets specially the ones we get for absolutely violating traffic laws. Some people are chicken hearted & scared so they list all anyway.

So my suggestion will be "READ THE ENGLISH" on the form it specifically says "LIST ALL OTHER THAN TRAFFIC VIOLATION". I think by mentioning this on the form we are basically proving to the USCIS officer that we can't read, understand, interpret english.

[baikal3]

A traffic ticket does not qualify as "being cited" by a police officer.

Yes, it does. This is not a matter of interpretation.
In fact the official term for a traffic ticket is "traffic citation".
The same would apply to a ticket you can get for making too much noise in your house or for jaywalking.

This question has been very extensively discussed in the "U.S. citizenship" subforum and there are lots of threads with
detailed discussions about this there.
There was even a thread there with some case where someones N-400 was denied because the guy had too many traffic tickets and this was construed as the evidence that he "lacked good moral character":

You apparently have an old version of the N-400 form. The old version did say "...List all other than traffic violations". But INS revised the form a couple of years ago, and the current version of it does not have this qualifier any longer.
You can download the new version of N-400 from the USCIS website and see for yourself.

However, a traffic ticket does not count as an arrest. Arrest is a legal term with a very specific and well-defined legal meaning. In particular, you have to be told by a law-enforcement officer: "you are under arrest".

My interpretation to "have you ever been cited ?... List all other than traffic violation.." Citation means when court order to show up. When cop gives the ticket it merely means you have violated the traffic laws & pay the fine...period end of story (of course if you pleadge guily of traffic law violation). Since on the form it says list all EXCEPT traffic violation, so i personally believe we should not mention traffic tickets specially the ones we get for absolutely violating traffic laws. Some people are chicken hearted & scared so they list all anyway.

So my suggestion will be "READ THE ENGLISH" on the form it specifically says "LIST ALL OTHER THAN TRAFFIC VIOLATION". I think by mentioning this on the form we are basically proving to the USCIS officer that we can't read, understand, interpret english.

[AmericanWannabe]

Do we have to report traffic violations many years ago
we had in our original home country?

[baikal3]

Do we have to report traffic violations many years ago
we had in our original home country?

I think not.

[AmericanWannabe]

I think not.

Why not? The form does not say "excluding
traffic violation committed outside the USA".

The trouble is if we do report, we will
have a trouble getting court documents.
In many countries we came from, the
system is not even that complete.
The fine can be done in thsi way, soem cops
stop you and force you to give him some money
and no receipt is issued

[ashutanu1]

I have had a few traffic violations and have wasted over 45 of the 90 day period before my citizenship application was due figuring out how and what to do about them. The answers are unfortunately blowing in the wind, and range across the spectrum. Logically, speeding cannot be considered "a crime of moral turpitude", it is more a question of negligence or at best, stupidity. However, logic may not be the greatest attribute of the USCIS. On the other hand, immigration lawyers seem to think that the sky will fall unless you go through them, although how they can use your couple of thousand dollars in legal fees to keep it from falling is not very clear either.

The USCIS website enumerates the items offenses/actions that if committed in the last 5 years would automatically eliminate the possibility of good moral character. You can read it at http://uscis.gov/graphics/services/natz/general.htm. I will put in the excerpt here just for everyone's benefit.

Generally, an applicant must show that he or she has been a person of good moral character for the statutory period (typically five years or three years if married to a U.S. citizen or one year for Armed Forces expedite) prior to filing for naturalization. The Service is not limited to the statutory period in determining whether an applicant has established good moral character. An applicant is permanently barred from naturalization if he or she has ever been convicted of murder. An applicant is also permanently barred from naturalization if he or she has been convicted of an aggravated felony as defined in section 101(a)(43) of the Act on or after November 29, 1990. A person also cannot be found to be a person of good moral character if during the last five years he or she:

has committed and been convicted of one or more crimes involving moral turpitude
has committed and been convicted of 2 or more offenses for which the total sentence imposed was 5 years or more
has committed and been convicted of any controlled substance law, except for a single offense of simple possession of 30 grams or less of marijuana
has been confined to a penal institution during the statutory period, as a result of a conviction, for an aggregate period of 180 days or more
has committed and been convicted of two or more gambling offenses
is or has earned his or her principal income from illegal gambling
is or has been involved in prostitution or commercialized vice
is or has been involved in smuggling illegal aliens into the United States
is or has been a habitual drunkard
is practicing or has practiced polygamy
has willfully failed or refused to support dependents
has given false testimony, under oath, in order to receive a benefit under the Immigration and Nationality Act.
An applicant must disclose all relevant facts to the Service, including his or her entire criminal history, regardless of whether the criminal history disqualifies the applicant under the enumerated provisions.

Thanks & regards,

AC

[AmericanWannabe]

No, it doesn't. But, is the foreign ticket a citation in the US sense?
Other countries have different legal systems, and what is a traffic citation here may not have been one in another country.

That is irrelevent. You do not apply USA standard to past incidents outside USA. Even if you do, what about speeding tickets outside USA? The standard is the same here.

As I said, even in USA, some traffic violation are completely decriminalized
as in Massachessets, I don't think you need to report them if they were
in MA. So to report traffic violation in foreign countries or not,
it depends upon whether are are criminal offense or not in that country.

But in pratical terms, I think forget about traffic violation in foreign countries
(maybe Canada is an exception if it shared the driver license record with USA).


What if one is convicted for spying for USA in a foreign country? should he
report it to USCIS? I think of course But I believe that may help yoru case.

I think this "getting the court documents" is overblown. I listed my speeding tickets on my N-400, but I don't have the court documents and I don't think it is necessary to get court documents for speeding tickets from 8 years ago (that's when I got my last ticket...)

But in other threads, someone say his received a request from USCIS
asking him to provide documents for his traffic violations.

[bullleo]

There are 10 states (Massachuseets, Florida, Oregon, etc) whch have completed de-criminalize ordinary traffic offenses. Ordinary
traffic vliolations are considered a civil matter between you
and the state government and are dealt in civil trial courts.

So you don't have to disclose your traffic violations made
in these states.

Hi, AmericanWannabe,
Can you examplify those 10 those states or URL? Or can you give me the URL of the related immigration law?
I got a ticket of careless driving(not reckless driving) in NJ.

Thanks a lot.

[baikal3]

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I will certainly be in quite a bit of a soup if USCIS ever asks me for the documents related to my traffic tickets. I had three of these: one around September 1996 (red light), one in July 1998 (speeding) and one in March 2000 (stop sign).
I have not had any traffic tickets since then.

The trouble is, I never kept those records and I moved several times since then, including a move abroad for a year (1997-98) and then a move from NJ to a different state, namely to Illinois in 2000.
I got all three of these tickets while having a NJ drivers licence, but only the last ticket was in NJ itself. The first was in New York and the second in Iowa.

I can't even find a copy of my old NJ drivers licence or a record of the number of that licence. Without it I can't request a copy of my driving record from NJ (I checked), which by now would probably show clean anyway.
I am kicking myself now, but I have also thrown away almost all of the bank and credit card statements from the 1990s (plus the bank accounts I was using then have been closed quite a while ago).


So I don't see how I could recover any records of those tickets if I need to. The only exception may be the 2000 ticket (not making a complete stop at a stop sign, New Jersey). I did go to court and contest that ticket.
The prosecutor offered me a deal to plead down to a non-moving violation (parking a car in the middle of the street -), which I did. As a result I did have to pay a court fee but was told that the ticket will not go into my NJ driving history.

I imagine that if I physically travel to NJ and visit that particular court, they may be able to give me a record related to that 2000 ticket.


I do understand that according to the letter of the law I would be required to report these tickets if I file N-400.

**** says that one should worry about being asked for records of the tickets only if and when the USCIS actually does ask for them. I have to say that I don't agree, especially since in my case I don't see how I could possibly recover such records.


Also, I feel that USCIS in most cases uses the rule of "buraucratic balance" when dealing with such issues. Namely, if some box that could be viewed as a "red flag" is checked in the application (such as having been arrested or gotten a ticket), it has to be "balanced" by having some documentary evidence explaining it before the application can proceed. So I am fairly sure that if someone does indicate having received a traffic ticket on an N-400 form, then USCIS will want to see some documentary evidence as to how the case was resolved.

I'd like to be wrong about this and if someone has experiences of the opposite nature, please share them.

[bullleo]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmericanWannabe
There are 10 states (Massachuseets, Florida, Oregon, etc) whch have completed de-criminalize ordinary traffic offenses. Ordinary
traffic vliolations are considered a civil matter between you
and the state government and are dealt in civil trial courts.

So you don't have to disclose your traffic violations made
in these states.


Hi, JeoF and Gurus,
Can you name those 10 those states or URL? Or can you give me the URL of the related immigration law?
I got a ticket of careless driving(not reckless driving) in NJ.

Thanks a lot. :